TURN 1 - Player Count
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[music]
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Welcome to Whose Turn is It Anyway, your board gaming podcast where we talk about all things cardboard and occasionally we
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get guests on the show. I'm joined with Dan from the show. Hi Dan. Hello. And also we have Haakon Gaarder
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from Gem Games. Welcome to the podcast. How you doing? Thanks for inviting me. I'm very happy
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to be here. Yeah, we're excited to to have you and uh and talk about all things Deco, which
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we'll get into in a little bit. If you're thinking, what is Deco? Well, we're going to explain it. We're going to get into some deep dives around this
TURN 2 - Meeting Haakon
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new and upcoming game, which uh we're very excited about. And I know me and Dan particularly cannot wait for this.
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and get hands on it. But we'll we'll get into that in a bit. But what we like to do uh Hon is um uh for every guest that
How did Haakon get into the hobby?
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we have on the show, we like to learn a little bit more about our guests and you know as either gamers or designers and
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and the first question we always ask our guests, it's the same thing. Um it's what got you in the hobby? Like how did
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you enter the space? Did you enter as a player um or did you enter as a designer first? Because different people have
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different entry points, right? So yeah, how did you get in? Yeah. Well, I got in as a player. Uh,
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what really got me into board gaming was playing Eclipse in 2012.
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Oh, okay. First edition. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Uh, it really blew
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me away that a board game could be as good or better than the game Starcraft,
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you know, computer game. And it was so cool that you could like design your own ships and then get to
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actually use those ships to conquer other players and uh and you could explore the galaxy and find ship parts
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and put those into your ships and so on. And uh it was such an epic experience even though it's it's just a game and
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there's no story cards or anything. It's just rules. And uh yeah, it really blew me away. [gasps]
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And then a few months later, my girlfriend uh was going to study in
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London and LC to take a master's degree in one year and she asked me to come along. H and I came and I moved in there
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with her and then I joined the board game club in London, London on board. Okay.
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And I was hanging out there basically five days a week, every [laughter] day after work, drinking beer and learning
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board games. And I see that as my board game education. Uh because I met so many
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board game experts and I got to tr try all the best games and uh yeah I would
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just request games in the forums there and people would bring them the day after and I would could play whatever I
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wanted. So it was fantastic time of life. If you're going to do [laughter] it just that's the way to do it. Absolutely.
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Yeah. Yeah. I think if you live in a mayor metropolitan area like London you don't need to own any games. You can you just
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ask for them and play them whenever. Yeah, that's great. It's good on the space, isn't it? I mean,
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yeah, you don't have to to hoard like hundreds and 200 games in your in your library. Just uh this is Davey, right?
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Davey's one of our podcast members. This is his philosophy. He he has his collection spread across everybody else.
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[laughter] Yeah. And he's I think he's he's on to something. He's definitely on to something. Yeah. Yeah. Then you have an incentive
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to stay more in touch with your friends as well. So, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Nice.
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Yeah. So, what happened in London there? You kind of instead of owning all the games, you kind of choose some games
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that you're really into and you kind of become the ambassador for that and you have to buy it because you'll eventually
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have to bring it and uh so yeah, I ended up buying like Keyflower. I was really into that. I
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love the Have you played it? No, I've not not played any of the key games. I've not played it, but I know it. Yeah. Yeah, I know of it.
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Yeah. There's this great auction system that your uh workers you also use for auctions and um
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a lot of tension in it and uh yeah I played that a lot and uh [sighs and gasps] chaos in the old world
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and I also got into coin games pretty much everything all kinds of games. Yeah.
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Nice. Because of course there was a resident coin guy there and uh a carcass one guy and Yeah. You could just
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Yeah. You got [laughter] a guy for every kind of game, right? He was like I fancy a bit of that. Yeah, cool. fancy some card games going over
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there. [laughter] Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Perfect. And there several the designers as well.
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Uh you know, Fabio Lapiano was in that group at the same time. Yes. Nice.
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And he he was running a Splinter group at the time. He was only that was only playing Avalon the Resistance at his
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apartment. [laughter] So was in there as well. So yeah, it was a great time and
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great time to be alive. Yeah. I mean that that's a good era for for gaming I think from from that kind of mid
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yeah 2010s up to I mean I got into the hobby or back into the hobby should we
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say probably 2015 2016 so terraforming Mars was just coming out
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and that was the the new things oh what's all this about so yeah it's it was a kind of a nice
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time so many options I mean it it has changed the industry I think with even publishers that I were once um you
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know looking through cataloges for you know even 10 years later completely different but I suppose that's just time
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isn't it? It's just what's going to happen in 10 years. It's uh it's for choice.
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Oh 100%. It's I wish I wish they would do like me and
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think like one game per year per publisher. That would be nice. [laughter] Yeah. One really good Juvie Rosenberg game and
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one really good Eric Lan game every year. I mean, that would be [laughter] perfect. If we could all just slow down, guys,
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just slow it down a little bit so [snorts] we can all pick a few good one good one at a time.
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[laughter] Yeah. Yeah, that's cool. No, Eclipse. Um, you know, being being your kind of first fora,
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that's that's a good game to to get started, I think. Yeah, I I echo that. I I have owned the uh second edition. Um I
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had played first edition. I've got um cuz first edition didn't have the uh quality of life uh luxury components in
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where the cubes would all sit nicely into recessed areas on your player faction board. I remember very vividly
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we playing first edition on a table which wasn't big enough to to play this game and the faction mats were [snorts]
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Yeah. Well, the faction mats were overhanging slightly the [laughter] the edge of the table. So that just meant
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every time you knock the thing, the cubes just went everywhere. And it happened I think at least six times uh
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during the game. Um and it's just like where did they all go? Um [laughter] yeah.
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Very clumsy. Yeah. Every time I think the first initially clips I just think of just cubes flying everywhere. [laughter]
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But it's great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Who who would have thought that the invention of of dual layered boards would be a saving grace for many people?
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[snorts] Just Yeah. [laughter] Great. Great stuff. Cool. Yeah, it is.
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Okay. Um, let's let's move on to the next question then. Um, so I have to ask and it might be an easy question uh or
What is Haakon's favourite game?
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it might be the most difficult question, but [laughter] what is your favorite game of all time?
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Where do you what do you uh Yeah, I'm not uh really the kind of guy
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who has a favorite game, but uh I've thought about it. I thought you'd ask me. So, the way I frame it is which game would
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make me the most sad if it ceased to exist? Good way [laughter] of a good way to look at it. Yeah,
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I think Yeah. And I think that would be Chaos in the Old World.
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Really love that. Cool. Nice choice. Have you played that any? I've not played. You're not the first
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guest to have mentioned that one as well. Um Oh, yeah. I can't remember who else it's meant to be. Yeah, a few of the guests
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have mentioned Curse in the Old World. So, yeah, I keep making notes. So whenever we have guests and I like make
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a note of that and I must look just Have you played like a Warhammer and 40k
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and that's it? I a long time ago. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because if you've done
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that you have this love for that universe and uh it just fits so well and it's dripping
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with theme nice while still being very efficient and just the right way of asymmetric. It's not like uh one of those games where
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every faction has different rules, but it's still very thematic and different and uh
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you get to be a chaos god and destroy the world. That's a pretty cool role to have. Exactly. So, what's not to love?
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[laughter] Yeah, exactly. Nice. Um okay, that's that's your kind
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of favorite with quotation marks um around it. Um let's kind of move on to
What games has Haakon been enjoying recently?
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more now then. So, well, what games have been hitting your table these days? Like, what what have you been enjoying
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playing recently, even the last few? [clears throat] Yeah. So, my group very recently
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discovered uh Camel Up or Camel Cup. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Camel Cup first edition or Camelup? [laughter]
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Camel up. Yeah, that's surprisingly good and very
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I really like it. I really like Camel Up. It's uh it's bonkers, but it's kind of what you want for a camel betting
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game, isn't it? It's uh Yeah, it works really well in how it all works. Yeah, it's very good. Have you
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played it, Dan? Yeah, I've never played it. I mean, I've I've had it in my hands multiple times
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going, should I buy this? And I never did. Um but I think it's something that my kids would like. I think I should maybe one day invest.
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Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah, you should. Yeah. And for heavier stuff, I mean, um, Tyrants of
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the Underdark, very good. Heard of that one. Yeah, great deck builder. And, uh, Concordia
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has been played a lot. And, uh, yeah, uh, there are new games
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every every evening here basically. [laughter] But yeah, Pax Premiere. Yeah. Okay. Yeah,
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it's really great game. Have you tried that? No, not played Pax Premiere. I played Pax Illuminatum.
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Um, oh, which surprised me actually that game I a 4X game and a card game and you think
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how's this gonna work? But it does and it does it does it well. But now I'd like to try PAX Premiere.
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Um, is that the one with the uh Afghanistan war with the Yeah.
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I remember the very nice ceramicy columns in that game that I I kind of just want to touch [laughter] to be
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honest. Yeah. Yeah. It It looks like something you would play in the 1800s in a little tent in Afghanistan, like a little
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table, right? Yeah, it looks fun. It looks cool. I do need to try it. Do need to try this
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game. Yeah, it's really elegant. Uh very very cold earlier, but uh yeah,
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and very elegant. Um quite heavy. Um yeah, nice.
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So, uh the one you mentioned, Pax illum Illuminati, what was it? Yeah. What's the theme there? It's uh based
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around the Illuminati um and your players uh different lodges
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and basically spreading your influence. And the board is uh cards set in a uh
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kind of over not overlapping, but they they're kind of staggered in the way that the cards are are created. So you
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can essentially like a hexagon, you can go to six different areas off the card and you can expand, you can exploit, you
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can exterminate, you can do all of those things, but you're trying to do all the X's. Yeah, all the X's are there and it's
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just a card card game. Um, yeah. And you're buying uh you're getting
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cards from the market very packs like, you know, you've got the the shop and the market that you you have,
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but what's really cool is that you're trying to play cards in like a run where you're trying to link them with the
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colors. So, you're kind of trying to I'll do this one, which is a green to a yellow, and then I can follow with a yellow to a blue and then I can play the
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blue one or triggering different actions off the cars doing some cool combos, which is nice.
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Um, oh, I love that combos. It's kind of really satisfying linking cards together
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and ultimately trying to exh in a way that you've got a secret
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card that says you you're trying to expand in a shape that looks like this or these particular cards or whatever it
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is and you've got these gold cards and there's all sorts of things that happen with the resources where they can end up
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getting not stolen but they can kind of get moved from you and there's a bit of stabbery in the game being Illuminati
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and you know in the shadows And uh yeah, I remember enjoying [laughter] it a lot. It was uh for a little box game comes in
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such a tiny box and you get a 4x experience out of that in under two hours. Like an hour and a half. It's
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great. Nice. Yeah. Have you played Space Empires 4X?
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No. [laughter] Is this Oh, it's such a great 4X game. The ultimate 4X game really. But uh
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[laughter] it's so oldfashioned though. It's like tiny square cardboard pieces on a map.
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Okay. Yeah. And you get like an actual spreadsheet that's printed out that you have to fill
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in with a pencil to keep track of your economy. But it's surprisingly smooth. And uh
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I wish someone would crack the code on that one then. Yeah. Yes, it is. Can hear Dan.
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It's surprisingly smooth. Having a look. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it has this great fog of war
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mechanism where you just flip the tokens over and under the token is a token with a number that says how many ships there
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are and what type. So, you have hidden movement that way. And I haven't seen any game do that, but
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uh yeah, we should always look back at older games and they've got some really
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cool mechanisms, right? And you should definitely like explore some of those really fun things. Um yeah, I have to
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check that out. 1981, then [laughter]
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but okay. I think the one I had was probably like a new revamped version or something. Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Yeah.
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I think it was after 2000 at least. Yeah. [gasps] Oh, you know what? I found it. Yeah, I
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found it. It's 2011. Space Space Empires 4X. There we go. There we go.
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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That makes more sense. But it's Yeah, it looks like it's from the 80s. [laughter]
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Yeah. I reckon they've taken possibly some inspiration from that one. Yeah, probably. Uh yeah.
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Cool. All right. Thank you for that. always good to just explore a few games, see what you like, see see kind of where
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your your interests lie and all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, thank you for that. Yeah, I basically like all games corpse
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all of them. [laughter] You're like me, Hen, cuz I I'm Dan, you're similar to me in that we just we like exploring a lot
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of new um I like to bounce around games. I like to try games. I don't I don't fear
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trying games. I'm happy to push buttons and and just explore the the puzzles and go, "Oh, what's this do?" And and I
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think I get a lot of enjoyment in kind of pioneering in in that kind of space
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and just uh yeah, kind of trying those things. And I love it. I like my board games like I like my
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cereal. [laughter] Crunchy. Crunchy. Oh. Oh, yeah. Very very crunchy. Crunchier the better.
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I I like I like the brain ache that uh that a board game can give you and to work out its puzzle. I think me
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and JP are quite similar that we like, you know, we're not we're not afraid of playing anything, whatever complexity.
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Uh, and if it gets the brain going, then I'm all for it. Yeah. I mean, we're fans of all complexity levels. Um Um, but yeah, we
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do like a good we like a good puzzle. We like a good uh uh Yeah. Like get to the end and go,
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"That was satisfying. That was Doesn't matter if you win or lose." It's just like that was fun. That was fun to try and
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I like to check my pogs to see if they're sweaty. If they're sweaty, it's a good game. Yeah. [laughter] Just like
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because then I've been really excited and Yeah. Love that. Love that.
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Yeah. Okay. Well, let's let's get into the main main event then. Let's get into the the main topic. This is why we're here,
TURN 3 - DECKO
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Hawen. Right. This is why we've come to to chat. So, um we we're literally talking just
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before we hit record, so we're going to have to to mention it again. But the whole reason why this episode is even
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here, right, is all Dan's fault in the best possible way, right? So we guilty.
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Um, so that Dan and me have been playing a very uh
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well-known digital game called Balletro. And anyone hasn't heard of that, just go
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and Google it and check it out. It's like five quid or whatever on on on the phone app store. Just look at it and and
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play it. Um, and we've been enjoying that a lot. I think last year playing loads and loads and loads of that game,
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talking about different decks and different jokers [clears throat] and things like that. Um, so we won't go
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into it because that's not what we're here to talk about. But the reason why that's relevant is because then Dan, I
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think just before Christmas, he dropped me a WhatsApp message and goes, "Oh, I've just backed this game. It's uh
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gives me this vibes of this other game." and uh drops me the link to to the page
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and I'm like, "Oh, well, I can't not look at it." So, I I look at it and I think I don't know. It wasn't even 10
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seconds. I think I looked through it and went, "Yep." [laughter] And instantly backed it. Um and that's a
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rare thing for me, Hawin. I I want to point that out. I don't sit and back millions of things. So, there's
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something there that I think we spotted that like, yeah, I used to I think we've all been through
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that, but not anymore. cycle. Um, but these days I tend to be a lot
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choosier and um and yeah, so this game is Deco, right?
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Your latest Thanks for backing by the way. Yeah. No, you're welcome. Um, we we can't wait. Uh, so this game is Deco and
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this is your your latest design. And for those that don't know um your kind of design history, you designed Villagers, right? And um and
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and that series of of games. So yeah, I played Villagers. I can't remember how many years ago. Quite a few years back.
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And uh I think I I remember one of our team, I think it was Davey, picked it up at UK Games Expo one year, probably when
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it came out. I remember playing that um quite a lot during during that year. I've always enjoyed that game. And uh yeah, and I
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can now having seen the uh the kind of artwork and I think you you do the artwork and the design right as well.
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Yeah, I do. Yeah, I can see the game design and artwork and uh basically
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everything. Yeah. So, I can see the synergies and I can see where where this is all kind of interlin from from a style um kind of
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kind of point of view. But yeah, Deco like pitch Deco to us um and more
What is DECKO?
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importantly pitch Deco to uh to our listeners who going what the hell is this game? What is Deco? What is Alatro?
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[laughter] Just what is it? So yeah, pitch away. Okay, so the elevator pitch would be Deco is a straight up hybrid of poker
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and deck building where you basically play 12 hands of poker and in between you build your deck and uh every player
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has their own deck and you they add all kinds of magical cards. Uh and it's all about just winning
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against uh the other players as much as possible to get the most chips like in poker. So that makes it quite different
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from bilateral where you're more like multiplaying, multiplaying a high score, but this is more like poker, real poker.
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And uh one of the things about the game that is a little unique is the jokers. Uh you can also buy jokers that are not
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mixed into your deck. They form a little tableau instead of permanent player powers. And uh all of those are linked
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to uh the actions you do in poker, like the betting actions. So you have jokers
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that trigger when you raise a bet, jokers that trigger when you fold, when you call the bet, and so on. Um, all
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kinds of strategies emerge from that. You may have a player who gets to steal poker chips whenever they call a bet. So
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they might call more than they raise just because of that. And uh, some players may choose to fold a lot early
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in the game just to because they can deck build better when they fold and then they come back with a big deck and
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uh, a good deck. I mean, uh, and yeah, and, uh, you get really fast deck
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building in in this game because you always get to burn a card, permanently remove a card every turn, and you can
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burn even more. So, it's not uncommon for someone to have a deck at seven cards at the end of the game. And the
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challenge then becomes to create a deck that beats everyone else, of course. And
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uh you you may want to oh okay I should have four aces but that's really hard to build because you don't start with an
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aces but uh getting four eights is much easier. But then again someone might later beat you
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with something better and uh it's very interactive uh high stakes betting uh combined with the joy of
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building a deck. So yeah, that's uh pretty much it. Uh
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if I hadn't backed it already, I'd be like shut up and take my money. There's always a second copy. Oh, that's great. [laughter]
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Yeah. And and of course, I have a copy on the way to you guys. That's so you can play the pre-production copy. So,
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thank you for that. We're very looking forward to getting our hands on and testing this out if it's as uh
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good to play as it sounds and and how it looks, I we're in for a real treat, I'm
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sure. So, yeah. Can't wait. Thank you. Yeah, I can't wait to hear from you guys after you've played it. Uh
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I also want to mention there's another thing in the game. We have some what we call wild card rounds. So in each game
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there are two rounds where the rules are different. So uh like uh in one wild card round it
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might be that uh it's all about having the single lowest card in your hand instead. And you know that round is
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coming up the whole game. So you want to build your deck towards that as well to have that low card. But at the same
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time, you have to build your deck towards the rest of the game where you want a a conventionally good poker.
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And also, there's a second wild card around with a different rule. Like there's one called the battle royale
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where all the royal cards count as wild cards. Oh, nice. So then you want to collect those, but
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those are harder to build for in general. So you get this tension. You're kind of building for three different games there. [laughter]
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And those special rounds also have a high ante where you have to put in a lot of chips. So you can't ignore them
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completely. Uh or actually you can ignore them but then you have to do really well in the rest of the game. Yeah.
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Uh and it's also created as a it's a race to build a good deck. So if you play really well compared to
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other players, the game could end early. It's that kind of game. So you won't get a situation where someone is just
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destroying everyone else and then it gets boring for a long time for everyone. It ends when it should end
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when someone is Yeah. dominating the game. Cuz this is what me and Dan were talking about. I think literally before the
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recording is I enjoy poker. I like playing poker. I haven't played for a while, but I like the experience that
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poker gives me, but there's always a bit in poker where you've been at the table for three or maybe four hours and
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money's [laughter] come to you, money's left you, money's come back to you, money's left you, and then you get to a
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natural point where you go, I can't be bothered anymore. And yeah, so with this being not constrained, but
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this this has been designed around a 12 uh round experience with
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twists along the way. Not only twists along the way in terms of the
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round and the wild cards that you speak of, but twists in the fact of how the flop cards work, and we'll probably get
24:01
into that in a second, how the jokers twist everything up. There's loads of different um exciting mechanisms that
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are just changing poker into this uh shorter, more focused [snorts] and and fun experience. And and yeah, I just
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think just sounds like a wild ride just from starting on it's all simple. We've got our standard deck of what is it?
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Twos to two copies of uh every number from two to eight. Two to eight. Yeah. So you got every
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like pairs of each number from two to eight in your starting deck. So you know it's all going to start off well. I
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can't do much right now. And then as you get more and more and more into the game, you're going to create some wild
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uh and cool kind of magical moments which uh yeah, I'm looking forward to to trying out. So, so I think maybe for
What is the gameplay loop in DECKO
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those that um are less familiar with with poker and um yeah, kind of want to
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know more about the the gameplay loop, can you kind of walk us through a typical round structure, how people
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would um acquire uh the you know, cards from the market um versus al how they
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acquire the jokers and yeah, kind of just what bring that to life just so people can imagine what what is
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happening in the game. Okay, close your eyes. Take a deep breath. [laughter]
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You you I'm at You're in a se. I'm at the table. I'm there. [laughter]
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Yeah, you can hear the slot machines. Uh yeah. Uh you you draw your hand from
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your deck of five cards. And then one player is what we call the blind player. That's same as in poker.
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That player goes last and they have to start with betting some chips. In the first round, it's going to
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be just one chip. And also it's all what we call the house has to bet the chip and whoever wins this round to gets all
25:47
those chips. At the moment just two chips. And then we start with the player next to the blind player who uh can now
25:54
burn a card and then they remove that card permanently from their deck. So they're already heavily into the deck
26:01
building and then they get to draw a new card from top of the deck. After that they can choose if they want
26:06
to stay in the bet or leave the bet or raise the bet. That is when you add extra chips to make uh the bets higher
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to make it more high stakes. And then we move on to the next player and you go on until all the bets are equal. Then the
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betting ends and then we show our cards and then the winner gets all the chips which are the victory points in this
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game. Yeah. And the win and after that everyone except the winner gets to buy new cards
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from the market. And uh and that's a natural catch up mechanic. Uh so yeah, if you win a lot,
26:41
you get to buy less and you get the worst deck. And that I like that. I like that a lot. Yeah, it works really well uh for that.
26:47
Um and then uh how much how many cards you can buy and what cards you can buy is
26:53
determined by um what hand you have. So if you just have a pair, you can buy cards for $1. Yeah. Then you'll only
27:00
have two options for the cards. Uh but if you have like a full house, you can buy for I think $5. So you'll get to buy
27:07
more uh at the same time you can buy uh jokers and those are not bought in that
27:14
way. They are bought by spending chips instead. Uh so you lose victory points
27:20
but they'll empower you for the whole game and that's going to really shape your strategy from now on. And you can
27:27
also buy some special actions like flushing the flop uh where you buy cards from and you can burn an extra card and
27:32
stuff like that. And uh then we move on to the next round and another player is blind and has to
27:39
go bet that first and as the game progresses the starting bets will be higher and higher. So get high be more and more high
27:46
stakes. Yeah. So it's very much uh designed dramaturically. There's a beginning, midland and end to this game.
Can players get eliminated like in real Poker?
27:53
Is there a chance for for players to be knocked out before the 12 or is there
27:58
always a way to catch up if you run out of chips? Oh, that's a good question. Yeah, there
28:04
are uh you can take loans in this game and the loans are unusually generous. Uh
28:10
so the way they work is they actually [laughter] if you run out of chips, you can get 10 chips from a loan and you
28:16
only have to pay five back at the end of the game. Okay. But you can only do it if you run out.
28:21
Yeah. So it's So that can happen. Yeah. Yeah. And that can happen to you twice.
28:27
And if you do it a third time, you're kind of screwed. But uh then the game is over anyway, very very soon.
28:32
Yeah. We're probably going to lose and must try harder next time. [laughter] Yeah. And also
28:37
when you're blindfolded. Yeah, [gasps] exactly. So, uh [laughter]
28:43
and also there's another catch on mechanism there. And uh uh if you fold around, you can pick any card from the
28:49
market for free. Oh, so folding can be really strong. Yeah.
28:54
So, there's nothing wrong with folding in this game. Like a turn order. Is like a turn is that a turn order when you pick that
29:00
card? Uh yes. Uh it's kind of like if you fold, you take that card immediately,
29:06
but if you stay in the bank, you have to Yeah, you might want to fold early. You go, I really want that card that's looking at
29:13
me, looking at me. That's going to help me with the wild card round that's coming up in maybe
29:18
next round, two rounds. I'm having it. And it's worth folding this one. I don't care. That's spicy. I like I like that. I like
29:24
that a lot. Yeah. Yeah. And there's al all kinds of shenanigans. There's a queen who can uh be used as one of the cards in the in
29:30
the flop. Uh and there's also a wild round where you're playing hold them instead. So you use cards from the flop. And of course
29:37
if someone folds then removes a card you were planning to use in your hand and uh yeah they're screwing you over and you
29:43
have to pivot from that. So it's very interactive. Yeah. I really like the fact that cuz again
29:50
you compare it to standard poker and it's exciting when you win the hand.
29:55
Of course you get all the chips. everyone else is just like great lost. [laughter]
30:01
Whereas this twists it on its head because you're like I'm actively wanting to lose but
30:08
not lose with the worst hand. I want to have a good hand, but I might want to
30:13
lose with it just so I get more buying power. And and and that's really cool because it's like I kind of want to come
30:19
in just under the the winner, but then you don't know why everyone else is playing cuz that's poker. And then you
30:26
might end up winning and go, damn, I've gone too much now. I'm winning VPs, which is fine, but I really wanted to
30:31
buy three cards because of um and I think this is probably a good time to talk about the flop and the flop
Discussion around the flop cards, jokers and more
30:38
card. So again, these aren't just standard cards. This is what's excited me probably the most, right, about this.
30:45
Um because the flop cards are really cool. So they're not just, oh, it's a
30:51
nine or it's a 10. You probably got those in there, but you've got um some cards that is a pair of cards
30:58
in one card. Yeah, exactly. We've got cards that could be uh a picture card and a number, right? So
31:04
it's either this or that. Um and you got Yeah. So, you got other you've got so many things that are
31:10
twisting up the standard um uh expectations of what the cards do. And I
31:15
think that's really exciting because then now that's making your deck really kind of unique and and and special in
31:21
your own way, which is what I love about deck builders, right? It's what everyone loves about deck building games is I've
31:26
got my own creation and by the end of it, it's doing some wicked combos and and really powerful, like you say, I'm
31:34
going to use your word, shenanigans, because it's one of my favorite words. Um [laughter] and and yeah, so the flop cards I I
31:40
can't wait to just have a fun through and go, what do these do, [laughter] you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. That's a much
31:46
a lot of the joy in deck building is just buying a really cool card and trying it out and see seeing how you can
31:52
use it. So So, and I love the artwork of the flop cards. I've seen a few of them and they
31:57
just look really cool. um take a conventional deck of cards and just you
32:03
know I imagine you just had fun with it uh with the artwork and just you know uh gave different different art styles
32:10
kind of combined like like some of the jewel cards you've got. I can see one of them one of the cards there a six and a
32:15
three and the way that you've kind of just manipulated the art. This looks really cool. Yeah, thank you. [laughter]
32:20
Yeah, I tried to make it like a metaphysical like cards could be melting or evaporating or uh stuff like that. Uh
32:27
yeah. Yeah, it's very very very cool. So, with the jokers, as you said, you buy jokers using your victory points,
32:33
your chips. Um, and there's six types, right? All kind of matched to the the
32:38
core actions of the game. Is it that you can have one of each type of joker? Um,
32:45
yes. So, you can only have one of each. So, so the max jokers you can have is six, one of each type of action. Okay. So you can't end up with three of
32:53
the same uh type to to make that because it'll probably end up being really [laughter]
32:58
swinging in different ways, right? Yeah, exactly. It's Yeah, it's a way of keeping things a little but you could
33:06
probably find synergies between the jokers which is actually Oh, definitely. Yeah. Like you're trying to build a um a
33:12
chip generation engine um out of of the jokers and what they're doing. like you said, if you flop, you do this or if you
33:19
you call, you get chips or steal chips from other people. And um so yeah, [snorts] trying to find those
33:24
connections between the jokers as well as the flop cards and what they're doing into your deck and hopefully drawing
33:30
that to make use of all of those connections is is Yeah. Can't wait. Yeah, it's like joker with a a like
33:38
poker with a lot of extra control that you create through the game to Nice. Yeah. So, surprisingly little randomness
33:46
in the end. I know everyone has these souped up text. Yeah. And then that's the thing. You get to the end and go, "God, what?"
33:52
Yeah. What What What did you end up with? I ended up with this. Oh, but like you say, it's poker, so it's
33:58
interactive. Like poker is a very interactive game. You are trying to outmaneuver your
34:03
opponents. Bluffing and all that kind of stuff is still kind of there. You, you know, have
34:09
you got the good hand? Are you going for the good hand? So it actually adds more dimensions. I think this
34:15
Yeah. Yeah. It really pays off to just watch your opponent and they start to repeat themselves playing
34:21
the same hands and how can you counter that and you can also add cards to the top of
34:27
other players decks with some uh mechanisms. That's a thing you do. Nice. And uh yeah.
34:34
Cool. So they might have a joker that lets them draw extra cards. But if another player has placed a card on top
34:39
of their deck, then they know what card they're getting here. Yeah. And there's a max hand size of seven
34:44
cards. So you can make them fill that up with crap just to [laughter] Yeah. kind of balance it. If someone is
34:50
too good, right? If they're sticking their nose too far forward and as we say in Norway, then you can Yeah. Yeah. take them down.
34:56
Exactly. Yeah. There's a It's why I call the the Mario Kart effect.
35:01
Yes. you cuz like if you're getting two ahead, you're going to get picked on.
35:06
That's just how it works. So, it is a race at the end of the day, right? Cuz you're racing to is it 60? Yeah. So, you start with 20
35:12
chips if I'm not mistaken. Start with 20. You're going to have to speculate to accumulate. So, you're going to have to start
35:19
spending some of those chips on jokers and obviously betting with uh which you might lose or or whatever.
35:25
Um, but ultimately you're trying to build that engine to get to 60 the fastest and whatever mechanism through
35:31
stealing, through earning, through playing really powerful hands or whatever. So ultimately the goal is 60.
35:37
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And you might have a player who's doing really seems to be doing bad most of the game, but then they have a big
35:44
cash in at the end when all the stakes are so high and they just been a lot. Yeah. All [laughter] in.
35:50
We should have punished you so much as well. Yeah, sneaky guy. [laughter] that can happen. Amazing.
35:55
And yeah, there's there's some cards are crypto cards. Yeah. And they have this multiplying score
36:01
going up. Uh if you have four crypto cards, you get four chips for each of those. So you get like 16 chips at once
36:08
regardless of winning or losing. So really all kinds of stuff that bend
36:14
the rules. That's what we want to do. We want to bend those rules. Did you did you find
36:19
uh that you had any any any jokers in there that were were just too overpowered that you had to like bring
36:25
them down in play testing or you had to get rid of completely cuz they were just too insane? Yeah. Yeah, I did. Yeah. Um so the way I
36:33
design games, I just I play them a lot uh by myself and then I play them with other people of course as well, but uh
36:40
usually I can figure out stupid stuff like that when just playing against myself forhanded. And uh and that got me
36:47
to change and kill many jokers. Uh I had one joker that let you take a card from uh the market straight up to your hand
36:54
and use it in the same round. And that turned out to be too good because it's so super flexible and uh
37:00
Yeah. So yeah, many nice cards like that. Yeah. [laughter]
37:06
Yeah. Nice. So nice. When when designing this game, was there any mechanisms in particular that
37:15
you uh felt was difficult to get right straight away and you needed to, you know, really really kind of battle with
37:20
it to to kind of make this work? Was there any kind of component of the game that you Yeah, you just have to wrestle
37:26
with more than the others or was it quite a seamless experience?
37:31
Yeah, it was went quite smoothly actually. Um uh there's a balancing
37:37
challenge there with uh you have the eight starting cards, right? Yeah. Uh from two to eight, you start with those
37:43
and then there are the other cards from nine and up to the ace and and making those getting those
37:50
powers just right. Uh like uh I have to give the nines and uh tens quite good
37:56
powers otherwise people wouldn't really draft them because it would be better to just collect eights and sevens.
38:02
Yeah. So, they have lots of doubles and stuff and uh same with the royal cards. Uh they had to actually be made quite
38:08
powerful with their abilities in addition to being high cards and that surprised me and uh but also I figured
38:14
that out. It worked really well. So, yeah. Cool. So, how many how many players is
Poker that works at 2 players...and up to 5
38:21
it? How's uh what's it go up to? It goes up to five. Okay.
38:26
Um and it goes also all the way down to two. Okay. Plays well at two. In the beginning, I didn't think I would be
38:32
able to make it work with two because it's poker, but then I played around with it a little bit and I thought, "Wow, actually
38:38
quite cool with two probably because of all the deck building." So, I was surprised to say to see a two
38:45
player. Yeah. Is there any like neutral player elements that you have to add in there at two players or is it just fully
38:52
synchronized with two? Uh, you like a neutral player? Yeah. No, you don't have to add any
38:58
dummy player or anything like that. Um, the only thing I had to change for two player and that's a rule that applies
39:03
for all player counts is if everyone folds except the winner, then the winner
39:09
gets to buy cards. And that rule was necessary to make two player work. So that makes sense.
39:15
Yeah. Otherwise, it could just ruin the game. Playing against someone who just folds all the time, it wouldn't be any
39:21
fun, right? Yeah. Fold done. And yeah, for like half the game. Wow. Good.
39:28
[laughter] So now they have to really have a good reason to fold and uh they have a great incentive to try and win the bet always.
39:34
Yeah. So that's really good cuz um yeah, I was thinking, oh, maybe you have to have a minimum free or something like that just
39:41
because of the dynamics of poker and how it works. But yeah, the fact that the additional
39:46
elements you you've added into the game actually naturally makes this work as a two-player. That's fantastic. Um because
39:53
how you can't play standard poker with two. It just like it doesn't work properly. [laughter] So the fact you can
39:59
play this and get that feeling of poker um and scratch the itch of the poker
40:04
itch but with all the you know added twists that you you've added in. Yeah. It's fantastic. Yeah. I think it works because it's so
40:12
much a pure deck builder. It's almost I would say more a deck builder than a
40:17
Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. That suits me fine. We're in. We're in.
40:22
Um, yeah. What's the uh the the kind of average length of the game then? So, how long say a four player, how long would that
40:28
typically take to to play? It sounds like you can get through 12 12 hands or 12 rounds in in a fairly short time,
40:36
right? So, yeah, I did the math there. I think it's
40:41
23 minutes per player is what I figured out. Very specific. [laughter] And
40:49
I know. Yeah, probably too specific, but uh that's I put that on the box actually. I think that's nicer than just
40:55
saying one hour and then you play with five and it takes two hours and then yeah, you know, it's more honest.
41:02
So yeah, it's very fast with two and if you play with four, it's going to take a bit more than an hour. hour and a half
41:07
kind of aspect which you know these these these days
41:13
is is great cuz you know I play 4hour experience or three-hour experiences and
41:18
I don't mind like um but we have we have a thing in in you know in our hobby where we have games
41:25
that we play on a work night or as we call a school night right um because we got to go up and we got
41:31
life and adulting duties to do the next day and then you got your weekend games and your event games, which you don't
41:37
mind if they take eight hours, that's fine. I'm all I'm here to do. It's cool. So, it's quite nice to have a nice
41:45
crunchy experience for around that 90 minute mark. Um, obviously depending on player count,
41:50
of course, but uh that you can just blast and also have that shall we go again? You know, I love games where you
41:57
play you play again and you get to the end and you look at the you know, you look at your watch and you go, we could do this again, couldn't
42:04
we? And off you go. Reckrack, reset, and off we go. And I love that. Yeah,
42:09
I got that in the play test. I saw that. That's really nice. Yeah. Yeah. [laughter]
42:16
Yeah. Yeah. You have to get up early. Yeah. Nice. Nice. Not me. Yeah.
42:21
No, Dan's [laughter] Dan's a night owl because of typically I'm a night I'm a night owl.
42:26
Yeah. See, Dan Dan Dan uh obviously does the the podcast, but obviously this is not our main job. So Dan's an
42:33
entertainer. Um yeah, a singer and entertainer. I am awful. Don't you mate?
42:40
I I make I make people smile for a living. It's my job. Does it very well be seen? I [laughter] do. I do.
42:46
In action many times. It means that I can play board games until 1 2 3:00 in the morning and have
42:52
no effect while everyone else is asleep because they can't hack it anymore.
42:58
Um however, I know you play play with that later. Uh There isn't many. It's not I'm kind
43:05
of like solo games for me at that kind of time of the day cuz I got no one else to play with at that time of day. But
43:10
then if you want to play a game at 10:00 in the morning, ask someone else. Yeah. Yeah. [laughter]
43:18
Oh yeah. It sounds like a great lifestyle. Yeah. I'd love to live like that. It's not bad. It's not bad as well. As well. Um, so I suppose I
The future of DECKO
43:26
suppose with the Deco and I'm looking looking at the game and obviously it's the the initial kind of iteration of it
43:33
and it's it's all new in there and my mind just goes into obviously the the
43:38
design of it and the mechanisms of it and and and I'm not saying you have all this ready but it must be pretty
43:45
expandable as well in in the fact that you could add more flop flop card
43:51
varieties. The jokers are an obvious uh area where you can go, you know what, there's more jokers packed of jokers
43:57
that will completely shift this this game around. So the core system remains
44:03
mains the unit the foundation and it's the same thing but there's lots of ways to uh expand and influence that core
44:10
system, isn't there? So, and was that a conscious kind of choice as well in the way that you've designed this so that
44:15
you could if you wanted to expand in that way or was it you just designed in a self-contained experience?
44:22
Yeah, I definitely want to keep that option open. Uh yeah, because uh that's
44:27
always a nice thing to have. Uh but it's also made to just be great the way it is, of course. Uh so uh so yeah,
44:37
there will probably be future expansions uh for now. Yeah, I [laughter] mean I think I haven't said
44:43
that to anyone yet. So that's uh that's a catch for you guys. [laughter] But yeah, so yeah, in the stretch goals I
44:50
added more jokers, but I have I haven't added any more flop cards yet. And uh the reason I haven't done that yet is
44:56
because I thinking the expansions might be just a whole new flop deck, like 54 new
45:02
cards. that you can either use instead of the existing ones or create uh or add
45:07
them together and make a double deck crazy game. Yeah, because there is a there is a case of dilution in obviously adding more and
45:16
more into into that deck, right? Which is I call it the terraforming Mars effect like when you you add in all the
45:21
expansions and all the project cards and and it sits on the side and you go,
45:26
"Wow, how many how many is in there?" [laughter] Um and we play it like that. Like we just throw it all in because we don't care. We're mad. Um, but it's that
45:33
kind of thing where yeah, if you've got too many options and obviously you're not expanding the rounds of the game cuz
45:40
that'll make it twice as long, you might not see what you're trying to get [snorts] and therefore Yeah. So, I quite
45:46
Yeah, it makes sense that you would just go, you know, here's here's another deck of flop cards that has some new synergies, new strategies that does some
45:53
new things. Yeah, that's cool. But, like you say, if you want to mix it all in, it's your game. You do what you want. [laughter]
45:58
Yeah, exactly. That's what I'm thinking. They have to be designed to go together. They have to be carefully balanced and
46:04
uh for Yeah. But uh but you can also allow like Yeah. do a crazy game. Use a wild
46:10
card every round. Use all the decks and Yeah. Oh yeah. So I'm wondering if people are going to use
46:15
real money to play Deco, you [laughter] know.
46:21
This is going to happen, Dan. Like you go, right, I'm putting [laughter] 20 quid in, right? Everyone's 20 pounds in. Yeah.
46:28
There we pound coins or whatever. Maybe not. [laughter] But she's practicing. I'm going to get really angry at rules queries then.
46:34
Really serious. Might get more serious than maybe I want it to. [laughter] Yeah.
46:40
Yeah. Especially when you're stealing money using a joke cuz that's mine now. [laughter]
46:46
Yeah. I got I got warned by the fulfillment company that I would get charged for having a
46:52
gambling game. Oh, okay. They arrive in port in Europe because people can gamble with it and then you
46:58
get an extra tax. Yeah. So, that'll be Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, that's the thing. If it's slightly
47:04
g gambling adjacent, then uh they put on Have you been charged that, if you don't mind me asking? Have you Have you been
47:10
charged that? No. Uh you you've managed to evade that? No. Uh I don't know yet. They're going
47:16
to arrive in containers in Portright and uh if there's an inspection, they might take a look at it and decide it's a
47:22
gambling game. So, yeah. Well, fingers crossed that doesn't happen. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I hope not.
47:29
So, it's all kinds of things you have to deal with with publishing that I'm just learning because this is my first
Experiences of self publishing through Haakon's own company Gem Games
47:35
self-published game. Yes. Cuz this under Gem Games, right, which is your your publishing company, which
47:41
Yeah. which is great, right? It's great to kind of have that end to end, right,
47:46
from design to getting into the hands of the players like us. And uh but I imagine it's it's like it's
47:52
a lot as well, right? which is oh my god there's so many things that you know the logistics of it all of how you get this
48:00
game whereas if you work with other publishers which you have which is I've got an idea I am working on it
48:06
and you might work with other people to develop that further or you might go now this is it and they they you know buy
48:12
the the kind of rights to to publish it then it's like now it's your kind of headache and uh hope it goes well let me
48:18
know [laughter] exactly but no I yeah Yeah,
48:23
it's a lot of responsibility. Your headache, but your baby. Yeah. You know, and that must be pretty cool
48:29
to kind of have the seed of the idea. And we talked to a lot of designers that have done similar things to yourself is,
48:36
you know, the genesis to on the players table and you're involved in in all of
48:43
that aspect and and getting that to to to its fruition must be pretty rewarding cuz you know I I work in project
48:50
management in my day job. So I do I manage complex projects and you know that's why I have no hair anymore
48:56
because I used to. Um but that's gone. That's [laughter] way gone. Um um and I know it's they're complex projects,
49:04
especially delivering product and what you have to do to to get a physical
49:09
product to someone. Um especially with deadlines and and uh yeah, the logistical matters all that. So yeah, I
49:16
I I empathize with you massively. [laughter] Yeah. Yeah. So I do I outsource a lot of
49:24
law. I'm working a lot. Yeah. like uh the logistics is all up to the quarter master logistics which is kind of the
49:30
biggest and most expensive fulfillment company. So, but they will handle everything like
49:36
they they'll have someone drive to the factory in China, pick the games up and yeah, take them all the way to people's homes
49:42
for me. So, I'll pay a little extra for that, but it's worth it because Yeah, it's uh it's
49:48
complex. Very very hard. I don't worry about Yeah,
49:53
you're sorting that out. That's cool. [laughter] I couldn't think of any I could I couldn't think of anything worse than a
50:00
trial. I don't know how JP does his job. I don't know how you and even to think
50:05
about having to logistically do a board game ship would be crazy. [laughter] Yeah. What business are you in JP?
50:12
Uh I do uh mainly uh kind of business transformation, IT uh delivery.
50:19
Okay. Kind of uh project. So yeah, can range from putting systems in for companies or
50:25
it can range from we want to acquire a different company and we need to integrate it into ours and all of the
50:31
fun and games that can [laughter] um uh entail from people process and and
50:36
technology and just merging it in and yeah I I kind of work in different aspects of that. I won't go into it cuz
50:43
it's I'm going to bore a lot of our listeners. Um, but that's typically uh, yeah, it's a [laughter] complex area,
50:49
but I do kind of weirdly find it fun. Um, because I mean, you have to find
50:54
some joy in in what you do at work, right? Um, and you come home from that and then you play a complex Euro game, economical.
51:02
Yeah. I don't know how that's how I rest though. Like I think I my my rest time is to have my brain leaking out of my
51:09
ear, I think. So, it's just the context is different. [laughter] Yeah. I know it's like in computer games
51:16
like you can have a stressful day at work and then you go home and play something like Dark Souls or something which is
51:22
escapism. Escapism. Yeah. You're stressed about something unimportant and then it's fine and then it's just relaxing.
51:28
It's completely distracting. Absolutely. It's um you know the stakes
51:33
are definitely lower in a in a tabletop environment, but I like I like to use the the gray
51:39
matter. I think that, you know, the brain's an important muscle and yeah,
51:44
and [laughter] I I I I kind of fear like when I get older, I I want my brain to
51:49
be sharp. I want it to be, you know, my body could be crumbling, right? [laughter] But I want my mind to be as sharp as it
51:56
possibly can. That's why I love games. Wheel wheel me in front of a board game, please. Can you move those pieces for
52:02
me? Because I can't do it, but my mind can. But you you need to move this piece. [laughter] Yeah. But it's supposed to be good for
52:09
the unaging brain to play games like counteracting Alzheimer's and all that stuff. That's that's the plan, right?
52:15
[clears throat] Um I see that every day in my job. So, it's uh yeah, I'm a firm believer of uh Yeah,
52:21
I it's uh I'm a firm believer that if you keep the brain working and and doing, you know, a board game's bound to
52:28
help. If you're if you're there crunching your brain all the time to try and think of strategies, then it can only help.
52:34
Yeah, I would think so. Like if if you're treating like people are semiile, then uh they need to relearn the the clock and stuff
52:42
like that, like rewire their brain and we like reviving our brain every time you try a new game. So
52:47
now I'm I'm converting resources from wood to to stone and then like like there's no tomorrow. So you know,
52:53
there's nothing that [laughter] we can't achieve. I love it. I absolutely love it. I I
52:59
could totally see myself in a retirement home somewhere basically nagging
53:04
everyone around me. We we basically have this old old games club where every
53:10
every day we'll be going into the living area. It's like right we're busting out Eclipse. We're playing Eclipse, guys.
53:18
Yeah. Yeah. You have all the time in the room. I've had [laughter] this dream. Yeah. Yeah. That's I've had this dream. I've had
53:24
this dream to it. I mean, I'm not going to rush to get there for sure, but there's some calm there's a nice
53:30
calmness around that that that feeling and thinking, yeah, that's not that's not a bad way to see out my golden
53:35
years, you know. So, uh yeah, absolutely. There we go. Um I digress. I digress. Um
How can listeners get a copy of DECKO?
53:43
just to wrap up the uh the Deco chat then. Um anything else you you kind of want to
53:48
mention about the game? Well, uh, it's, uh, it's going to be available now on
53:53
Game Founder until the end of January. So, and, uh, it's going to ship quite
53:59
soon. I mean, people will receive their copies. Some people will receive it as early as in May. So,
54:04
that's a wicked far off. Yeah. Great. Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, I'm getting what they call the
54:10
white box copy now from China sent to me today. Uh, that's like a copy of the game where everything is white.
54:16
Yeah. just to control the insert and stuff. Yeah. So, and yeah, so they have everything they need and
54:22
they're going to start rolling out production very soon. So, yeah, everything is in order. So,
54:27
okay. Yeah, please check that out. And I also want to mention that um there will be a
54:32
big box additional villagers coming out from Sinister Fish. Nice. With a new expansion with new cards from
54:39
me. So, that's something to look forward to for people who like villagers. Yeah, that sounds that sounds great. I
54:45
mean, we we'll put all the links in the show notes. If you're listening to this and go, "This this game sounds pretty cool and I love poker and I love deck
54:53
building, so why wouldn't I check it out?" Check out the link in our show notes. Will direct straight to the game
54:58
found page and you should see a little button that says Lake Pledge, and you just click on that and uh away you go.
55:04
And um yeah, I I implore you to check this out. It's it's a game that more people I I really truly believe should
55:10
be talking about. And uh I cannot wait to get this in front of, you know, me,
55:16
Dan, and and the rest of the gaming group. They're going to love it. We got loads of poker fans in in the gaming
55:21
group. So, I can totally see them digging this as well. So, yeah, I can't wait to to try it out. And thank you for
55:27
for sending on the uh the pre-production copy in advance of when we get it. Uh [laughter]
55:33
yeah. Yeah. And Yeah. And if you like it, I'll also send you the final copy which will have more cards and a bless
55:39
more final for that. Of course. Yeah. Thank you so much. Excellent. Excellent. Okay. So, let's
TURN 4 - What's Coming Up
55:45
let's kind [snorts] of get to the uh the the the end of the show. Um kind of last
55:50
questions then really or last question is uh what are you excited for in the
55:56
future? What's coming up for you? Whether that's in the the gaming industry, the hobby, anything like what
56:02
what what's exciting you? What's coming up? Apart from the villages big box, which you've mentioned, which is cool.
56:08
What else? Well, there's also a third thing going on. Uh, I have my work replacement game
56:14
called Yonder, which has been in production for a long time now, but it's finally going to ship
56:20
now quite soon. And then it's going to be in retail. It's already been being translated to
56:26
German and I think also Spanish. Uh, that's going to be my really heavy game
56:32
for me, my heaviest yet. Uh where the workers are like fantasy races like elves and goblins and dwarfs and stuff
56:38
and they have different abilities and nice. Pretty cool. Nice. You had me at work placement. [laughter]
56:44
Yeah, exactly. That's always a nice thing, isn't it? It's my favorite mechanic. It's my favorite mechanic.
56:50
And you also have to feed them [laughter] like in the URL. Yeah.
56:56
We can't let them starve. We got to keep them fed. Uh no. No. We don't want those begging tokens. We don't want those tokens.
57:01
negative victory points, please. That's not what No. Oh, that's cool. But you can have uh you can have undead
57:07
workers, skeleton workers, and they don't eat. So, that's what in that game. Oh, nice. I like that. Yeah, that's
57:13
thematic. Yeah. Or you can have ogres that just eat twice as much, but they work. Yeah. Much harder.
57:19
Much nice like that. Nice. Add everything in between. So, yeah. Okay, that sounds interesting. I think
TURN 5 - The Final Turn
57:25
we're we're pretty much at the end, guys. And I've enjoyed learning a little bit more about the game. I'm even more
57:30
excited than I even was, which is Oh, same. Not possible. Can't wait. Not possible. Can't wait. Can't wait. Um and uh yeah, thank you so
57:38
much for for joining us tonight on on the show. And uh yeah, as you say, if anyone has enjoyed uh the show, then
57:46
please please share it with your friends, share it with your gaming group, share it with anyone who loves poker, anyone who loves deck building,
57:52
share, share, share, cuz uh yeah, we need to get this kind of game out there for for other listeners and getting them
57:57
to check it out. Um but yeah, if you like the content that we do and uh everything that we we kind of strive to
58:04
to achieve, then you know, please support us. We are on coffee as well. We we love any support that we get on on
58:10
the podcast and anyone who does support us, we we love you and please keep doing it cuz it makes our show even better and
58:16
allows us to do more and more cool stuff. But but yeah, I think all that's to say is thank you Dan, thank you
58:22
Harken and we will see you on the next one. [music] Thank you very much. Thank you guys. See
58:28
you.