TURN 1 - Player Count
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[Music]
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Hello and welcome to another episode of Whose Turn Is It Anyway? I'm Rob. I am
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your host for this very special uh expansion episode where we have Tristan
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Hall joining us of Hall or Nothing Productions. Uh one of my favorite ball games is Gloomer Killilfor. Uh another
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one is Creel Mana. Both designed produced by by Hall or Nothing. So I am very privileged to get the chance to sit
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down and speak to him. Um so no further ado, we'll get to it.
TURN 2 - Meeting Tristan
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[Music]
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So, I'd like to welcome to the podcast Tristan Hall. How are you doing, sir?
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I'm very good, thanks. How are you, Rob? Good. Yeah, I'm very good, thank you. Um, thank you for coming on because I appreciate you're incredibly busy at the
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moment. Um, which is what you've come on the podcast to talk about. Um, which we'll get into uh in a little bit. So,
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uh, first thing, your first time on the podcast? Yes. And thank you for having me. Much
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appreciated. Oh, you're most welcome. Anytime. Um, so when we have a uh a new guest uh on the
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pod, we ask them three questions. So, if you're happy to be in the hot seat for for 5 minutes asking these really
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intense um highlevel questions, uh then then I can I'll crack on with those. Um
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so, first things first, obviously you are a board game designer. Um, so, uh,
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I'm guessing it kind of stems from, um, playing board games originally. So, the
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first question that we always ask is, uh, is kind of how did you get into the hobby in the first place?
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All right. Well, it's probably very similar to the answer that everybody else gives. Um, because yeah, uh,
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obviously played games since I was a a little kid. Um, I remember getting Lost Value of the Dinosaurs back in the 1980s
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and I was obsessed with all the colors and the dinosaurs and the little figures and the coins and I remember spent like
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a whole rainy day copying the entire cover like drawing it, you know, like just copying the entire thing because I
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was so obsessed with that explorer in the jungle with the the monsters behind him and stuff. Um, but when I came back
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to gaming as uh uh like in my early 20ies, I sort of started tinkering with
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other people's games and making scenarios and like expansion characters and, you know, just fan-made uh
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materials and stuff. And I kind of got really like a bit envious of these other game
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designers who said, "Oh, I've been designing games since I was a kid." And I was like, "Oh gosh, you know, I wish
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I'd had the sort of the wherewithal to do that as a child. I didn't even know that board game designer was a job you
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could do, you know. I just thought that everything was grown internally in these, you know, impenetrable companies
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like uh Games Workshop or whatever. Um, so yeah, so I I always thought, oh god,
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you know, it's so cool that these guys have been working and it's their vocation is to design games. And then we
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were clearing out the attic and I found all these games that I designed as a kid
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and all these different modules and all these uh scenarios for like hero quest and stuff like I don't know if you
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remember those little maths textbooks we used to have which had the little squares on all the pages
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and I filled about three of those with different scenarios for hero quest when I was about 10 or 11 years old.
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Oh that's fantastic. So to find all these linking parts that sort of it turns out maybe I was like a you know in
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training a little bit after all training wheels anyway kind of an apprenticeship uh you know
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just just not getting paid at all for it rather than getting paid very little. So um so effectively you're you're kind of
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releasing your back catalog as opposed to designing new games. All these games were designed when I was
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about six or seven years old. So improved a lot on them.
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Nope. No. So Oh, that's that's really cool because um because obviously some for me designing
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a board game is is you know I can barely play them most of the time let alone design them. So the fact that you were
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kind of called to it at a very early age and then it's it's kind of progressed naturally into into your day you know
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your day job. That's fantastic. That's really cool. So it's kind of like a like a legacy that's weaved all the way
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through your life. That's fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and there's still there's stuff that's in there like law
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stuff from when I was a teenager playing Dungeons and Dragons and stuff and like the name Kill Forth comes from uh a D
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and D. And in fact, I found um like a little game book. I was trying to write a fighting fantasy game book when I was
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about uh 10 like a primary school. And um it it was called Kill Frith back in
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the day. And and at some point that had evolved. Maybe I found it too difficult to say or something. And so there's this
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weird sort of connective tissue that like I had in the back of my mind, you know, and it's all kind of a love letter
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to talking anyway. Um, as most of Yeah, a lot of it sort of come from
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these um obscure childhood ideas and the the um you mentioned before we started
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recording Creole Mana. The the name Creole Mana comes from like a board game that I designed when I was um at high
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school and it's completely different obviously now. It was like roll 2d6 and move here and do that kind of stuff. Um,
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but I loved the name, you know, Creole Manor still felt like it had like a um
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an interesting vibe and it also tied in with like some D and D stuff I'd done
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and so I had like quite a bit of lore about it anyway. Um, and then of course when we put it on on Kickstarter, the uh
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Stranger Things came up with Creel Manor and they, you know, with a C and I was like, damn.
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Uh, am I going to get busted or can I just show them the this game I designed like 30 years ago or whatever. And um so
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yeah know it's interesting looking back at the u like the legacy elements that
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have come together you know and I'd like to think it would be a happy conversation if I could go back to
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10-year-old me and say you know one day you'll get to do this for a living and you know um you don't have to worry too
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much about or whatever. So is that with like all of your games it feels like there is quite
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a deep lore to to the world and I'm guessing if you've been building it for for 20 30 years that's why that that
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kind of comes through so easily um because you've been planning this stuff for so long. That's that's absolutely
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awesome. That's really really cool. Yeah. Thank you. You know, it's it's a it's a weird one because there's um
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there's elements that that have changed obviously and then there's stuff that I've not even scratched the surface of
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like the like the gods of Gilforth and the sort of mythology that you know like birth the world and like how how would I
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sort of work that into a board game and some like more uh abstract elements that would be harder to like contain in it.
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because the I've been really lucky in that the games have been quite well received and I've been able to come back and do like reprints and sequels and
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prequels and all that kind of stuff and it's gradually sort of getting to tease out little bits and pieces as time goes
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on. Um, but also from a game designer perspective, I, you know, I also want to
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try and do different worlds, different genres, different, you know, I want to do science fiction and I've obviously
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done some history games and I'd like to do like a Wild West game and all these different things. So, um, as soon as,
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uh, anything starts to feel kind of repetitive or wrote, I can just step away from it and and my brain's always chasing the next
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game anyway. like the next idea and run with that. Um, and so it's it yeah, I mean it
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really feels like I feel dead lucky. I worked in office jobs for other people for like 20 years. Uh, and of course the
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first game that I did, Gloom of Killforth was a passion project and it was like a hobby and um, it went really
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well on Kickstarter and eventually led to me being able to do this full-time and so now not a day goes by. I've been
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doing it for, you know, nearly nine years. Um, but I don't like sort of think, you know, how how long can I get
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away with this for? I'm watching games for like for fun, for for a living, you know, who when am I going to get found
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out sort of thing. Imposter syndrome almost. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Uh, but it's but
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it's also really fun. I mean, it's hard as well. You know, you work sometimes like 16 hour days. Um, my wife will, you
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know, get up in the morning and I'm still going and she's like, "What are you doing?" Um but uh but that's but
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it's kind of like almost like uh the cloud, you know, you scale up to when you need it. So if you're really busy,
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you can work really long shifts to get through it and then, you know, after after a campaign or like during a print
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run or something where there's a little bit more downtime, I can get to sort of chill out a bit and come back down to
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earth. So yeah, you can't go 100% all the time. You'd be completely burn out.
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Correct. Yeah. Um, and and one of the things like back in the day, I used to want to make movies. Um, and I wanted to
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be like a the next Shane Meadows, you know, and start doing like a like uh British independent films and stuff. And
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I ended up doing uh corporate video work. And I was like, "Oh, this will get me, you know, the experience will be
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like with cameras and editing suites and sound and stuff." And every weekend or every evening I got
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in, the last thing I wanted to do was touch a camera, you know, or an edit speed. It was just, oh my god, I can't
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even bear the thought of it. So, uh, but that's not happened with board game design. Like, when I finish, when I
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clock off, I'm like, oh, what should I do now? I want to I want to play a board game. So, so it's not hit yet. Like, um,
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and and if it did, I'd probably want to try, you know, maybe write a novel or something like that.
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Oh, there's definitely novels to be made in the in the world of Kill for 100%.
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For sure. Yeah. I mean, um, the the latest game that, um, we're about to deliver, um, Sublime Dark. I don't
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really talk about it too much because one of the sort of twe things we came up with was this notion of like keeping
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information about it kind of uh, secret because when I was a kid and I bought board games, the only information we'd
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have about them was what was on the box. There was no previews, unboxing, you know, rules rule book online to pick it
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up. If I had a cool cover, you were like, "Oh, wow." So, I wanted to recapture some of that. So, I don't talk about it too much, but
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one of the things that um I can't escape this year is that one of my personal
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goals was to write a book, was to write a novel. Um, and it didn't happen because I ended up writing something
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like 40,000 words worth of text for the
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Sublime Dark. So, I was like, well, I kind of tick that box. you know, it's not strictly
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it doesn't follow in order and it's nonsequential and stuff, but but but technically the the creative volume is
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there. So, and certainly the creative exhaustion is there. So, um yeah, but
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maybe maybe one day. Yeah, I'd love to do um to write a book as well, but right now I've got so many games that I want
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to Yeah. Yeah. Maybe when you get when you do get a little bit tired of board game design, that that's another avenue to to
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kind of pursue. We'll see. No doubt you'll smash that as well.
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Fingers crossed. The second question, um, this doesn't have to be one of your own. It can be by
What is Tristan's favourite board game?
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all means. Um, but what is your favorite board game of all time? Does anybody say one of their own?
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Um, it's certainly not like a like I'm very proud of the games that I've done, but there's there's like um uh you know
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all the tricks, you know what's behind the scenes, you know what's coming, you know the cards, you know all the law,
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you know. Um, so you can't surprise yourself with your own game in the same way. Yeah, I'd never thought about people
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if I think about uh games that I enjoy. I also don't consider mine in the same
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league. Like I look at the like people like Vlad and uh you know designers like that like superheroes, you know, like
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far far and away beyond what I could ever do. you know, you play a game like Mage Knight and uh or Through the Ages,
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and for me, I'm like, how did one guy design both of those games? Those are both like 10 out of 10 like masterpiece
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games. Uh so, so I guess it would be, you know, if I had to say a favorite, um
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with the caveat that it would be subject to change depending on what day of the week it is, but the one that I, you
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know, I've written articles about and stuff is is through the ages, which um I
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think is pretty much flawless as a game, but it's kind of also
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dated in some respects because it has things like player elimination, you know, which is like a sort of frowned
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upon concept in this day and age. The fact that you can literally wipe someone off the table and have them have to sit
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there and watch you for the next two hours or whatever it is, you know, is really archaic. Um, but it's also
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there's like online implementations of it as well that you can play. And um, I just I love the the tech tree, the
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development, and the fact that you're chasing about eight different like progress tracks. You know, you've got to
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manage your your food, your materials, your science, your culture, all these different point tracks and stuff. And
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um, and it's just so clever and it's so brilliantly implemented. Like I loved
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Civilization growing up on the PC and playing, you know, Civ games and the only thing it doesn't have is that
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exploration, you know, with the tiles like and um but you don't miss it when you're playing through the ages, you
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know, doesn't it doesn't feel like it's missing anything. You're so fraught with
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trying to get your two little uh farmers into becoming like rocket scientists or
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whatever. It's uh it's got so many brilliant uh elements and yeah I I live
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in awe of people like Vlad or you know Martin Wallace and those kinds of dudes who just knock it out of the park each
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time. I've I've never played it. I've heard an awful lot about it. I've I've never had the opportunity to play it. But um
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hopefully if we get those guys on the pod one day and they say you know I'm really in awe of what Tristan Hall is doing. I will personally de I would
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deliver you the file in a frame. So um so so yeah it be Tristan who
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I doubt that very much. Uh so the final question uh uh so
What games hit your table lately?
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obviously your you a lot of your time is spent developing and kind of dealing with all the elements of of getting a
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board game into people's hands. Um but when you do get a couple of hours of downtime um what's been on your table
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lately? Oh what games? Okay. Um so uh we have a regular game night at my
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house u with some close friends and then and so that one we'll get to play um
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sometimes we get to play campaign games, you know, you have to get the same team to commit to those, but we're quite
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flighty, you know, so we'll play like uh adventures of one campaign and then jump onto the next one. You know, we had a
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bit of a deliance with uh Conan, the monolith. Okay. Name because I'm kind of a sucker for
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miniatures even though I'm completely incapable of painting. Like
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I've spent hours painting and just like looking. So mostly all of my miniatures games are
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like a sea of gray plastic. Um yeah. So
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e even so uh we love playing like miniatures campaign games and things and
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um Cthulhu Death May Die and uh Shadows of Brimstone. Uh but then I also go to a
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a local like games night where it's just everyone brings a different thing every week. So you try all different kinds of
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games. So um it's always the new shining. One of my regrets is that you you play and
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enjoy a game and uh like say I don't know like Game of Thrones the board game
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or something like that and you love it and then you don't get to play it again for like a year because so many other
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games enter rotation. So you never really it's harder to drill down into
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the minutia of the different tactics and stuff and um I guess growing up as a kid
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I got to play games to death you know to rinse the life out of them and and that's why I you know I would end up
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creating expansion material and stuff to like prolong the life of those games. Uh
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so this is a roundabout way of trying to think of the games I've been playing recently. Um, one of the ones we've
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played a few times recently is the new edition of Cyclades. Oh, okay. I've never heard of it.
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Yeah, it's like an ancient Greek uh mythology area control dudes on a map type.
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And it had been on my wish list for about 20 years for so long in fact that the addition has has changed. So, the
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the version that I ended up getting for my birthday this year is called the Legendary Edition, and it's like an
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evolution of whatever the game was that I was desperate to play 20 years ago.
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Um, but as it turns out, it's a really fun uh plays quite quickly. Awesome. Um, and it's, yeah, it features one of
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my favorite things like Greek mythology. You get to summon the Medusa and like muck about with your mates and it has
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really crazy like overpowered combos and stuff which some people will probably
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deplore but uh in a game like that it's kind of like Eclipse and those those 4x
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type games or the games where you're ultra competitive I kind of don't mind because if I get hit by a ridiculous
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combo and taken out I'm like yeah but next game I might be the one doing that. So, kind of come to terms with it. And
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so, we've played that about five or six times this year, which may or may not not sound like a lot. I don't know like
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what other people get to play their games, but uh for me to play the same game that many times is, uh a rare
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treat. No, 100%. Play testing. It's quite interesting what you said there because my favorite thing about
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your games is that they're not hundreds of minis. So, it's quite funny how that that hasn't transferred over because I I'll
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get to that in a little bit. But yeah, that that that I find that quite interesting because I'm like you. I've got mini miniature games and like they
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are all gray. Um because paint I can't invest the time to paint them. Well, I
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that's a lie. I can't get I can't invest the time to become good enough to be able to paint them without ruining them.
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So So yeah. So I find that quite interesting. But no, that's that's awesome. I'll keep an eye out for that.
18:37
That sounds really interesting. We got a couple of guys in our group that would love the theme. So um so yeah 100%
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backstabbing and treachery that our our gaming group was built on those very principles. So so that sounds
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firm foundations. Yeah cuz we we made like you said we we kind of try and play Game of Thrones once a year and we always have a it's
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kind of like an event game and and and we try and get it to the table once a year. Um, and even that we
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struggle with, but every time we play it, it says, "I wish I could play this more, but yeah, I haven't got eight
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hours free every weekend to be able to do it, unfortunately." So, so no, that was awesome. And on the miniatures
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thing, we we did we have done um miniatures for the Killfor games, but
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they're, you know, they they're incredibly expensive to produce. Um, and so the the games that have, you know,
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hundreds of miniatures and stuff, they tend to be ones that fund to the tune of x million dollars. And that so
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once you're at that level of scale, you know, you can produce a lot of miniatures. Um, we're not there yet. I'd
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love to do like a Dungeons of Kill forth, you know, miniatures, uh, exploration.
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Shut up and take my money. I feel over that.
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Maybe we'll do like a standy version, you know, work our way up to like a a miniatures version one day. That sounds awesome.
TURN 3 - Night of Wolves / The Ruined Path
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Thanks, Tristan. That was awesome. I'll I'll make sure that I I keep an eye out for those games cuz they they they sounded very very interesting. So uh so
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awesome. So the the main reason for inviting you onto the pod is because you had uh you've got a uh Kickstarter going
20:13
at the moment and it's the first time I've ever really got chance to get out ahead of your games rather than um my my
20:20
local Hall or Nothing dealer um Ninja Geek Games, Mark himself. he has to get a mention on every podcast.
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Um where he introduced me to you a few years ago and he has now become my my dealer in all things all or nothing
20:32
production. So um so it's quite nice to actually get out ahead of what's coming as opposed to to kind of oh this has
20:38
been out and you'll really enjoy it. So um so uh the k the campaign's live on Kickstarter at the moment and ends on
20:44
the 6th of January. Correct. Yes. Yes. It's been running for a couple of weeks now. Um it's funded
20:51
already. So that's really cool. was really encouraging. You never know, you know, it's it's always like pressing the reset button when you start a new
20:57
campaign. You're like, "Oh, I wonder if anybody's going to turn up for this one." Uh, and you know, as as often as
21:03
possible, try to do different things to try and keep it interesting for for me and and for backers.
21:11
One of the things about some of my games is the rule books are, you know, 20 pages or or or more in some cases. So, I
21:19
love uh deep complex games and you know, we were just talking before about like Through the Ages and Mageet and stuff,
21:24
but um one of the things I also love is short games that can be played very
21:30
quickly because you've got maybe a spare half hour lunch, you know, break or or you you're waiting for to go out or
21:37
something like that. And um and of course fewer of my games uh have that
21:45
like capacity to just sort of break out and you know and and go. So I've been to
21:51
with a few ideas over the years of like uh a game that you can just pick up and shuffle and and and get into. Um and so
21:58
and there's a few games in my collection that I enjoy doing that and they play very quickly. And so this time uh the
22:04
the pair of games that I've launched uh Night of Wolves and Ruin Path both try
22:10
to capture that. You know, a game you can play in half an hour and you can just solo it. And uh there's a co-op
22:15
mode for Night of Wolves as well. Uh and they both do hopefully quite a different
22:21
thing. So uh the ruin path is a solo debt building game which is quite strategic and you know uh difficult and
22:30
very uh mechanical uh you know I've taken off all the flavor text this time.
22:36
So whilst ostensibly it's a kill forth game you're not really telling a you
22:42
know an epic tale in the way that you would if you were playing one of the other games. So hopefully it's challenging and it's got like lots of
22:49
variation and different bosses and different character setups and ways to make it like replayable and and
22:54
interesting. Um whilst also giving you like a deck builder type fix. Um and
23:00
then on the other hand is the game Knight of Wolves which is the first in a series which is kind of a love letter to
23:07
sort of a choose your path type uh adventure books you know like the Final Fantasy game books and stuff. um in that
23:16
you uh flip a well, you don't flip cards when you're playing those those game
23:22
books, but for this one, it's a deck of cards and you flip over a a series of cards. We've got like thousands of
23:29
gorgeous images from our games that we've been collecting over the last 10 years. And so it's also an opportunity
23:35
to highlight the artwork from our our artists, the team of brilliant artists
23:41
that I'm really lucky uh to be able to work with who bring life to these games. And so on the one hand, you've got these
23:47
uh beautiful art cards, and then uh you choose one to encounter, you flip it over, and on the other side is like a
23:54
flavor text adventure. Like in each card is a mini adventure. You could almost
23:59
you could shuffle this deck and use it as like a template to run uh like a role playing game, you know, like it gives
24:06
you like little vignettes, little encounters that you can just sort of throw into an adventure. That was that
24:12
was kind of my design approach was was that like each would be a self-contained little scenario. Um, and so you yeah,
24:20
you flip it over, you read the text, and then you get a bunch of choices. And it, if it was in a game book, it would be
24:26
if, if you want to go east, go to paragraph four, five, six, or whatever, that kind of thing. Um, and this one is
24:32
you make a choice and you rotate the card and the card has a reward or a penalty based on the choice that you
24:38
make. And sometimes you'll you'll be forced into certain choices because you won't have the items or the boons or the
24:46
things that you need to to deal with that encounter. And then all you do is rotate the card and then tuck it under
24:52
your character card to show the results of your choices. So, if you uh go into an ancient cave and you find some
24:59
treasure and you find an enchanted sword, then you would make a choice and
25:04
if you're able to gain that sword, you tuck it under your character so that the enchanted sword is revealed and then you can use that in future encounters and if
25:11
you use it, you discard it. So, you're kind of building a tableau of adventures
25:16
as you go along. But it's kind of zen-like hopefully in in the way that you do it because you literally just
25:23
look at a beautiful piece of artwork, flip it over, read a little adventure, um rotate the card and on onto the next
25:31
one. And it's got it's got a difficulty uh curve to it. I like difficult games and course if a game's too easy, you
25:37
know, you you'll not come back to it as often. But it's also got ways to make it easier
25:42
if you're struggling with the difficulty. And all you have to do is get to the bottom of this deck of cards and survive and then take on one of a
25:49
bunch of variable bosses which also require you to spend cards and and uh
25:54
and rotate cards and things like that. And if you get to the bottom, you get to score your adventure and the whole thing
26:00
wraps up in you could do it in, you know, 20 to 30 minutes. If you're taking your time to enjoy the artwork and read
26:06
the stories, you know, maybe you'll take a bit longer. Um, but it really for me just hit that sort of middle ground of a
26:13
game that is dead easy to teach. Like all of the rules for the game are on two cards. Um, which was another design
26:21
challenge for me because when when you're making a game, you get carried away and you want to add more and more
26:27
stuff and you want to make it more complex. You're like, "Oh, what if I had a gold system where you could meet merchants and barter with them and then
26:33
you can negotiate with them." I'm like, "No, no, no, no. Just keep it simple. like keep it keep it to what it is and
26:39
and what it is is like a relaxing little stroll through Killforth and um meeting
26:46
various creatures and strangers and going on adventures and stuff but just in a completely new uh mechanical millu
26:54
for me um which I I really enjoy. So it seems to have drawn a few people um and
27:01
attracted a bit of interest. Exactly. It was that that short simple play through because I I have I have two
27:06
of your games. Um I have uh uh Gloomer Killforth and I have uh Krill Mana. Um
27:13
Terrific. Thanks for the support. No, they're they're some of my favorite games and I'm not just saying that cuz
27:19
you're on the podcast. I genuinely love them. So for me, I've got the the kind of epic exploration game in Gloomer
27:25
Killforth and I have almost a campaign game, not a campaign game, but but an element that leads from one game to the
27:31
next to the next to the next over over a series of of kind of sitthroughs. Um, so for having that quick halfhour game for
27:39
me is is right up my street at the moment. My time's quite limited at the moment. So when I saw when I when I went
27:44
on the Kickstart and I was like, "Oh, it's two games." I was like, "Oh, he did. you're not a glutton for punishment
27:50
enough that you're trying to release one game. Um, secondly, I saw the artwork, which I mean, all of your games, the
27:56
artwork is beautiful. We we've spoken about this in person a couple of times. Um, and and the artwork is just
28:02
absolutely fantastic. And uh, and yeah, very much looking forward to them because they're quite oversized cards, aren't they? They're bigger. So, more
28:09
more getting more of that artwork in on the cards for me is only a good thing.
28:14
And there's no uh there's no graphic design elements over any of the artwork on these cards. You know, it's full
28:19
bleed, full artwork because you know, you play Gloom Killforth and as you say, like I think objectively I I love the
28:26
artwork. I didn't do the artwork so I don't claim responsibility for that. Um so objectively it's the kind of art I
28:32
would want to have in a game like I wanted it to go toe-to-toe with the Lord of the Rings or Star Wars games, those
28:37
kinds of um so and and and I'm as I say really lucky to work with a team of artists who who deliver that. Uh, but
28:43
sometimes, you know, you you've got it all, you've got this beautiful artwork. I've got some of it blown up to posters
28:48
in my room framed and around the office,
28:54
but then it's condensed down into these little, you know, 66 mm cards and then
28:59
covered with texts and uh various graphics and symbols and stuff. though
29:04
it still delivers like um a presence, a table presence and stuff, but is often
29:10
quite obscured by uh paraphernalia, whatever the word is for
29:16
all the the junk that I end up sticking over it to to make it a playable game. Uh and this this time was an opportunity
29:22
to just really show that off and just, you know, you could you could just buy it for the cards and not play the game
29:27
and just leave through and and look at uh all this artwork. So, so yeah, that
29:33
was uh it was really fun to be able to go through and pick out those pieces,
29:39
you know, and highlight different pieces because um as I say, we've got hundreds, well, thousands of images that we've
29:46
accumulated for the world of Gilorth over the years. Um so, it's brilliant to be able to show some of that off and
29:51
and quite nice for me. I like again I've got I've only got your the two games. I'm planning on getting more, don't
29:56
worry. Um, but when like the the the demons that come up at the end of Gloom
30:02
Killforth, their artwork, I find them quite disturbing in a nice in in a good
30:07
way cuz you want the final boss to to kind of look at and you're like, "Oh, that that's difficult to look at." And
30:12
not not difficult to look at, but I find it uncomfortable because of the artwork's so good. Um, so to see
30:18
elements of games that I've played elsewhere used in other games, I I love it when people do that cuz it's it's
30:24
like a little call back to like a like a nod to an experience that I've had that I really enjoyed previously. So yeah,
30:30
I'm very much looking I looked at it and I was like, I don't need another Hall or Nothing game. I don't need another Hall
30:35
or Nothing game. And I said it four times and then I was like, I need another Hall or Nothing game. It was like It was like, oh yeah, yeah, I'm
30:42
going to do it. You reverse. Yeah. Yeah. But I did it on myself as well. It wasn't like somebody did it to
30:48
me, which uh I I don't know if that's better or worse somehow. Um I'm really glad you said that about the
30:53
the ancients like the bosses for Gulf as well because we like deliberately Carlos
30:59
Villas is our main uh monster artist and I really wanted him to design u like
31:05
hellish like demonic that there was no question that you wanted to burn them with fire when when
31:12
you when you fought them. You know, they were they were genuinely terrifying. you get to the end and you just want to ah
31:17
it's a cute sort of dragon. I want I like to ride that you know and fly on it or or uh you know make friends with the
31:24
whatever the bony skeleton or whatever and just I wanted it to be oh my god I don't even want to look at that. I just
31:29
have to destroy it and uh so he's obviously taken that and run with it for um Sublime Dark which is uh full of
31:37
horrendous monster artwork. Uh but yeah, but the but the flip side of of that is
31:42
that we have like beautiful landscapes, gorgeous locations and characters and
31:48
uh and all kinds of things. So um for Night of Walls particularly, it's
31:54
it's lovely art to look at, you know. Oh, 100%. Yeah. Yeah. You want your
31:59
villain to be villainous, though, and and all the other characters and like you said, the landscapes. Um cuz I
32:04
managed to pick up a um Pimp My Gloom expansion pack. Uh uh expo this year. Uh was it your son
32:11
that was on the on the store with you? Yeah. Yeah. He he was like, "Oh, I'll I'll try to
32:17
sell you." I was like, "No, no need. I I want that. I'll take that. Thank you very much." Like, I I don't need any
32:22
more sales pitch. I'm in I'm in up to my neck at this point. You understand next year, Rob?
32:28
Well, I I happily come and I'll happily come and spend a few hours. Not a problem at all. Um but but yeah I so the
32:35
seeing the the oversized location cards that you get with the Pimp My Gloom and I love that name for an expansion as
32:41
well that that's just absolutely fantastic. Um the oversized cards that you get with it and and kind of seeing those
32:48
landscapes um as well as well as the people artwork just to see the landscapes as well was was really nice.
32:54
So um so yeah that's an awesome touch. the because the only I saw so when I
Discussion around the accessible price point for the games
33:00
went on the to the to the Kickstarter campaign um I saw the price and I was
33:06
like I'm I'm 100% in. I I've only ever done big Kickstarters. So when you said
33:11
about minis and and kind of generating millions I was like oh that that's kind of what I associated
33:17
um kind of Kickstarter campaigns with was you know that three four 500 mark which um is is can be mental. And I
33:26
think I'm mental for doing it most of the time, but it doesn't seem to stop me, which is again quite worrying. Um,
33:31
but when I saw the price points of both of the games, of one, you know, of either game or both of them, um, so for
33:38
people listening, I've got it on screen next to me, so I'm not that professional. Um, but, uh, but the Night
33:44
of Wolves for £29. Um and the uh the ruin path for 25 it was that was that a
33:52
conscious decision to try and keep it as low as possible but make it more more you know kind of more um enticing. Yeah,
33:59
absolutely. 100%. Like um everything is going up now. All the costs. Um artists
34:05
are having to put their rates up to compete with uh companies that are using AI to do their artwork for them, you
34:11
know, and it that's a model that's uh like insane to me. You know, we spent over the years hundreds of thousands of
34:17
pounds on artwork and now companies are producing games and spending 20 quid on
34:22
artwork and making hundreds of thousands of pounds. So these artists, you know,
34:27
been working for like their lives trying to make a living are now being uh iced
34:32
out by, you know, this uh slot. And um so it's it it does make that's one cost.
34:39
Then there's the cost of production. Then there's a cost of shipping. Then there's a cost of tariffs. And then there's a cost of all these um crazy
34:46
elements that just staying afloat and making games these days is is daunting.
34:51
and then staying afloat in the sea of um three or 4 thousand games that coming out each year and trying to have yours
34:58
stand out amongst them is is certainly daunting. And as somebody who backs and buys lots of games as well, you know,
35:05
it's it's a um it's a tough prospect. you know, like you say, if you want to
35:10
go in on a miniatures game and you want to get all the bits because you don't want to miss out on anything, you can go
35:15
down the rabbit hole and soon find yourself uh like hovering over the, you know, complete purchase like what what
35:21
am I doing, you know? Um, and so deliberately these games are decks of cards, you know, they there there is no
35:30
components. There's no extra punch boards, there's no extra plastic, wood, you know, um, deliberately designed to
35:37
be decks of cards, not just for uh, ease of access in terms of shuffle the shuffle a deck and and off you go when
35:43
you're playing the game, but as you say, to to keep that price point as low as possible. Um, and the these are lowest
35:50
priced games that we've made. Um whether or not that has uh an impact uh like an
35:55
accessibility impact, I don't know. We we'll find out by the end of the campaign how well they did compared to previous campaigns. Um and like whe
36:03
whether they appeal to new backers or existing backers or people who've never heard of us or um that's all data that
36:10
we can look at after the fact. Um, but what it has done is allowed us to fund early, which is, you know, reassuring, a
36:17
rate where we can go into production on a a healthy print run without having to
36:22
try and get into a retail market in, you know, in the UK or the US or whatever. If if retail comes, brilliant, but it's
36:29
certainly not something that we have to be, you know, um, heavily motivated towards. Uh, and yeah, it's Christmas
36:37
time. I'm aware that we're running a campaign over Christmas. I I also wanted to make sure that we got new games uh
36:44
and made them available this year because I obviously have quite a lot coming down the pipeline, but we haven't
36:50
we haven't launched anything because we've it's it's taken well, it's taken me so long. I'll fall on my sword. It's
36:56
taken me so long to get Sublime Dark ready uh and off to print and there's been so many uncertainties in regards to
37:02
terrorists and shipping and all that kind of stuff. But we've managed to line all that up and that's all um that's all
37:09
taken care of and accounted for and we can launch these games. We can because
37:14
they're so small because they require uh so little in terms of logistics, we can
37:20
attach these to the print run of Sublime Dark and get this all out and printed together. Uh which obviously saves us on
37:26
freight shipping. Um, and so the it's the timing of all of this
37:33
has been quite hard to sort of get together, but the reality is that now it's going to be uh an advantage to us
37:40
as a publisher and an advantage to uh potential backers because we can do it at this much lower cost. Um and so in
37:49
that respect it's been new and interesting and exciting and scary because you know uh you can't like you
37:55
can't permanently discount those prices and you can't like uh you know you have
38:01
to be responsible as a publisher. You have to set fair and balanced uh pricing. Um uh but they're up a low
38:08
enough point for it to hopefully draw people in who perhaps would go. I'm not paying 70 quid for, you know, a giant
38:15
box of games, but I'll I'll try one of these at 25 quid and see how it goes. And um yeah, fingers crossed.
38:22
Well, I mean, you you've you've uh you've got it funded, which is I suppose has her one. Yeah.
38:27
Um and uh and yeah, and like I say, I I kind of was like, "Yeah, I'm in." Because to be honest, the artwork is so
38:34
pretty. To buy three posters of the artwork, you're talking more expensive than the game.
38:40
Yeah. Like this is weird. Like this is how I justify these things. I think well, you know, what else would I spend that money
38:46
on? Um and it was like, do you know what? Knowing your games, knowing the production quality, um knowing the
38:52
stories that you tell within them, for me, that is an absolute steal. Um
38:58
I really appreciate you saying that. No, genuinely. And again, I'm not saying this because you're on the podcast. I've
39:03
I've had conversations with Mark and I've had conversations with uh with other guys cuz I try and introduce Gloom
39:08
of Killfor to as many people as possible. Um, and I've never had a bad time with it. Um, you mentioned
Don't worry if you get the rules wrong, just have a good time with the game
39:14
something really cool earlier as well about the rule book and there's a line I that's in both the rule books that I've
39:20
come across, so I'm assuming it's in all of them where do you know what? If you play it for the first time and you get a couple of rules wrong, it doesn't
39:26
matter. Just have a good time with the game. And I think um the deeper I seem to get into the hobby, the more the more
39:33
stress I put on myself about getting getting the the game right. And it's like actually do you know what? If I've
39:38
spent two three hours and I've had a blast with that game, that's all that matters. And for me that was like that
39:44
was a a really nice touch and it was like you know what if you don't get it right don't worry about it. As long as you've had a good time get it right next
39:50
time and and kind of go from that. So for me, um, the fact that you said that, you know, you make your games easier for
39:56
me is terrifying because, uh, I I always struggle with them. So I'd hate to think where that goes.
40:03
Um, but the fact that you said as well, like, you know, the the cards are just flip, read, do something, move on. Um,
40:10
that that for me, um, I I've done a re an episode on our pod recently about solo gaming. And for me, I'm something
40:17
that I'm getting more and more into. Um, and the fact like you said it's a solo game with the option of co-op. Um, and
40:24
that that you know you can bust out in half an hour and go cool or you know if you mucked it up within half an hour do
40:29
you know what I'll try again. It's not the end of the world. And that kind of thought process of just have a good time
40:35
with it. Even if you don't do it as I as you as a designer intended as long as
40:40
you're having a good time with it that's all that matters to me. And I think that that's such a strong message that that
40:46
kind of get lost, especially the more games I play, the more competitive I I play. You kind of forget I do this for
40:51
fun. Yeah. And and for me that after reading that line, I was like, "Cool, I'm just going
40:56
to mess around with this and have fun and and kind of go from there." So, um, so yeah, and the fact that you're you're
41:03
quite available to fans about gaming rules, um, especially of your own games. Um, that that that's really cool as
41:09
well, cuz typically if somebody posts a question, you've actually responded to it. Maybe not all the time. I get you're
41:15
very busy and that puts a lot of pressure on you moving forward. I'm going to get an answer from Tristan. Um,
41:21
but but you know, the fact that you're quite ang that you're quite um, you know, kind of active in that is is
41:27
awesome. was like, "You know what? If you get it wrong, don't worry about it." And for me, that's that's kind of made it a lot more accessible.
41:34
Yeah. Well, that that's great. That's great to hear as well because um you know, I' I've played games and I've
41:40
watched other people teach games and struggle with the teach and then, you know, get halfway through a game and be like, "Oh no, I've got to look this up."
41:47
and and then the game stops for 10 minutes and they're going through like a an encyclopedic rule book or checking
41:53
online and like you're going on board game geek to look up the answer and all this kind of stuff and um and and my gut
42:01
instinct is yeah, you know, you of course you want to play by the rules as written. Um but if you're if it's going
42:07
to hold everything up, just pick a rule, make a note of it and find out after the game, you know, and next time you play
42:13
it, you can correct that. and if it's gamebreaking, you know, the next time you play it, you'll get it right and and
42:18
whatever. And um and but looking online and as a gamer and as a a hobbyist, I I
42:24
see the sort of um I don't want to say panic, but like the that sort of like obsession that people have with getting
42:30
the rules exactly right, and then and some people will come on and correct you, go, "Oh, if you're not playing it this way, then you you know, you're not
42:36
playing the game kind of thing." and and it's sort of um it it detracts from the
42:41
experience because if you you play for a game for three or four hours or whatever and at the end of the night you you know
42:47
you got a rule wrong, it doesn't invalidate what you've just done, you know, unless you had a horrendous time with the game. Uh and and a lot of my
42:54
games like Lum Killforth have modular elements that you could just skip entirely. And so, uh, for example, it's
43:01
in the rules that if you don't want to use, uh, plots or, you know, ancient abilities or like things that make it
43:06
more complex and more difficult, just leave them out until you're more familiar with the game. And, you know, if you want to make it easier, if you
43:12
want to make die roll succeed in a four, five or six instead of a five or six, do that until, you know, until you've got
43:17
the grip, until you're ready for that that next level challenge. I come from um playing games in the 80s and 90s
43:25
which were in some cases really difficult like really high difficulty and and I love Dark Souls. I played like
43:32
uh video games that are almost, you know, like ridiculously difficult because the the the feeling of
43:38
achievement you get when you unlock a bonfire in uh in Dark Souls or Bloodborne or something like that is so
43:44
far and away above what I get from playing through like a regular like narrative story game. Um that I kind of
43:51
want to offer those experiences in in my games, but not everybody likes that. Some people like to play
43:56
collaboratively, you know, um and uh some people like to play games that
44:02
don't have wipeout conditions that are like through the ages where you can wipe some off the map. And so, so all of these things you got to sort of balance
44:09
uh when you're designing a game, but but that uh approach of just giving people
44:14
the permission to enjoy it without having to obsess over every detail, I didn't um take for granted that people
44:22
would do that when playing my games. And so I that's that's newer. That's not in the very first edition of cleaning up
44:28
Kilforth. That's something I added after the fact. Um but people you're not the first person to mention that. A lot of
44:34
people have said, "Oh, it's really nice that you've included this, you know, don't don't worry about the rule." And I'm like it take take that and do that
44:42
to every game that you play, you know? Yeah. And I from that I've tried to cuz I've opened games before and gone
44:49
I'll I'll come back to it later but like unconsciously having permission to play a game the way you want. Although you
44:57
know you should get you should feel that way anyway. You know you want to get it right and you want to have a good time with it but
45:02
at the same time like pull levers press buttons and see what happens. Yeah. And it kind of unconsciously gave me
45:09
permission to try another games. go, you know what? Like, I I'll play it and see what happens. Um, so yeah, I think it's
45:15
a really cool element that I haven't seen anywhere else. It's it's what it's what budding game
45:21
designers do as well. You know, it's what I did back in the day. And you you you tinker with other people's games and
45:26
you break them and you you muck about with them and and you rebuild them or you you uh you expand them and have new
45:33
scenarios or new characters or, you know, whatever it is. Um, you you play with the rules. You play with the the
45:39
rule set and you find variants. You know, maybe you play uh a great game, but it takes too long. So, you come up
45:45
with a rule like a variant to make it shorter. And you know, a lot of designers now are keenly aware of this stuff. So, you get
45:50
lots of variants included to make games shorter and this that and the other. Um, but we shouldn't be afraid. We're
45:56
playing games at the end of the day, so we shouldn't be afraid to play with the rules of those games. that as long as
46:01
it's fair to everybody, you know, as long as it's not like, oh, well, this one faction is way better and you know,
46:07
as long as everybody's enjoying the experience together and it's as difficult for everyone together or as it's easier for everyone together, um,
46:14
then yeah, it should absolutely just be about the the joy of getting together with your mates or in my case, all of my
46:20
games are solo friendly, getting, you know, playing the game by yourself and if you [ __ ] it up and you don't get the rules 100% right, you know, fix it next
46:26
time, but not in the middle of the game, not whilst you're, you know, uh, having a a narrative ative experience. So, uh
46:33
figuring out the mechanisms and uh tactics of a particular game. Yeah.
46:39
No, that's perfect. Yeah. Cuz uh like I say, it kind of opened the door to other games which uh which Yeah, like I say,
46:46
it's the only time I've I've seen it. It was was you writing it. So, thank you for that. Well, I'm probably not the first person
46:52
to do it. It's one of it'll be out there in the Z guys. Someone will have will have done it first. But the the sentiment, I think, is is really uh the
46:59
thing, you know, it's it's a nice sentiment. You know, take the pressure off. You've got enough We've all got enough pressure at work and everything.
47:06
Uh when you're playing the games, it shouldn't be as, you know, uh when when when someone's teaching a game and like
47:12
them the brow is beating with sweat over the pressure of getting those rules right. The last thing you want to do is
47:17
slap more judgment on them, you know, and more pressure. So, yeah, it kind of feel like sometimes you just I don't
47:23
have capacity to deal with this at the moment. you know, you're just sat there thinking, "This should be fun." If it gets to the point where you're like,
47:28
"This should be fun." So, yeah, I'm doing it wrong. So, no, thank you.
Tristans passion for the hobby shines through
47:34
But it's really nice to to kind of hear how passionate you are about it. And cuz you you kind of at a distance um you you
47:42
you kind of you you know you know for somebody like yourselves a small publisher and I mean no disrespect by by
47:48
saying smaller publisher is that kind of you not only do you have to do the projects that you're passionate about
47:55
but obviously you there's a lot of love attention care that goes into this um
48:00
and that's something that I feel that I found in in kind of all of your games is that you know like I say the law's deep
48:06
and you can tell somebody genuinely cares about this product, which is probably the advantage that you have as
48:12
a smaller publisher as opposed to the the kind of bigger ones is is your passion project, right? You're making games that you want to play. Um, and I'm
48:20
assuming that the the night of wolves and the path of ruin. I'm assuming that they're Oh, sorry, the ruined path, I
48:25
should say. Sorry, I've been path of ruin. Jeez. Um, if you get it wrong, you
48:31
just correct it next time. There we go. There we go. See, it's a rule to live by, not a rule to play by.
48:36
Um, so, so yeah, I my with my experience of your games, I have no doubt that these are going to be cracking a lot of
48:43
fun. Um, cuz an interesting thought that I just had is that I don't have a solo
48:49
deck building game. I have games with a solo variant of a deck building game, but I don't have a specific solo deck
48:55
building game. And I say deck builders tend to take a while. They t because it's that it's that engine builder,
49:01
right? is is is kind of you you need to invest the time in to get a better a
49:06
better deck. So, the fact that you can do this in in 30 minutes for me is I'm so excited to play these games.
49:13
I that's why I was like, you know what? Yeah, I I thought for all of about 30 seconds before I back. So, um with the
49:20
ongoing campaign, I wish you all the very very best of luck. I hope as many people kind of get to see it and play it
49:26
and view it as, you know, as as humanly possible because uh the price point is accessible, artwork's beautiful, um and
49:33
you know, and you're going to have a good time with it. So, I wish you all the very very best of luck with it.
49:39
Brilliant. Thanks so much. I really appreciate you saying that and and yeah, we as you mentioned, we are just uh it's just it's just me and my wife, the
49:45
publishers, and um she does all the clever stuff with the accounts and that and uh and I get to design games and and
49:52
run fulfillment and things. Um and it's it's a terrific privilege. Um but also
49:57
it is difficult to be to be heard, you know, in the noise and to get the word out there. So, anything like this is um
50:03
is a real boost to us. You know, to be asked on the podcast is a privilege. And uh so thank you for having us and uh for
50:10
you know um sharing sharing the word spreading the word and uh and for being
50:16
a gamer. You know I'm I'm a gamer way before a designer and you mentioned there like um about about designing
50:22
these games. It's for me it's I I want a game that uh I
50:29
want to make games that aren't there yet. For me, you know, I want a solo fantasy deck builder. Well, there isn't
50:34
one that ticks that box, so I'm going to do that. or I want a narrative like adventure card game that I can play in 13 minutes with great art. Okay. Well,
50:41
there isn't one that I've seen that, you know, so I'm going to I'm going to do that. Uh, and that's my approach. So,
50:46
um, so fingers crossed that it it connects with other people who have similar tastes. I have absolutely no doubt it will
50:53
judging off your past and your kind of your past games and how how passionate you are about this. I have absolutely no doubt this is going to be fantastic.
51:00
soon as it gets uh fulfilled and delivered, uh I will get it to the table as quickly as possible and and let you
51:06
know. We don't do reviews on the podcast. We just don't. Um but I'll quite happily drop you a message and let
51:11
you know how much I loved it cuz I already know I'm going to. So uh so thank you very much. Whatever the
51:16
formula is with you and your wife, don't change it. Keep doing what you're doing. Um and uh and continue pumping out these
51:22
these these great games. So uh from, you know, from me personally, thank you very much.
TURN 4 - What's Coming Up
51:27
[Music]
51:36
Thanks, Tristan. I'm very excited to see the fulfillment of the Kickstarter. Um, so while I've got you here and uh
51:42
because I probably won't see you until the summer at Expo, what have you got in the pipeline or have you got anything coming that you can kind of tease us
51:48
about? Okay, cool. Well, um, at the expo hopefully we'll have these games. We
51:54
should have playable, purchasable copies of Night of Wolves, Ruin Path, and
51:59
Sublime Dark. So, uh, if you, um, if you pre-order them, you should have them
52:05
before the expo. Fingers crossed. That's like that's definitely what we're aiming for. Um, and then, of course, next year,
52:10
I want to play catch-up a little bit because this year we we didn't have any new games until December, which is a
52:17
long time to go for, you know, an ind publisher that thrives on on getting new products out. And so, but of course it's
52:24
it's difficult one to manage as a as a solo publisher because you don't want to have multiple projects going at the same
52:30
time and have people thinking, well, hang on, I'm still waiting for this, that, and the other. Um, so it was very important to me to be able to get uh
52:36
both of these smallbox games lined up with Sublime Do so we can deliver them all at once and and not have people
52:42
waiting and waiting and waiting. So once that's all um 100% in hand and I've got the mass production copy in my hands and
52:48
I'm happy with the quality and everything and we've signed off, printing has commenced and underway um
52:54
then we'll be looking at the next game's launch and probably the first most likely game is going to be um Wvenmore.
53:03
Well, it's a direct sequel to Creel Mana. it is the same system uh but
53:08
rather than being set inside this one uh citadel uh it's going to be an overland
53:13
adventure. So um primarily that means uh new cards but it also means like um
53:20
weather effects, brand new heroes, brand new monsters and encounters and um new
53:25
pieces of artwork and things like that. So uh really looking forward to that. That sounds awesome because uh I I'm
53:32
about to go on a CR mana run at the moment. So brilliant. Um I I doubt very much I'll get to experience all of Cre
53:38
Mana before that comes out, but it's nice that uh that if if that's coming down the down the potential pipeline
53:44
that um yeah, I I'm very much looking forward to that already. Uh appreciate that. Yeah, we've had uh
53:51
I've had really good feedback about Krillin. It's the game itself is an evolution of a game I did previously
53:56
called Veil Wraith. Um which was u a borderline impossible game about the end
54:01
of the world doing the apocalypse with like monochromatic artwork which I thought was really beautiful and unique
54:08
and a lot of people were like where's all the colors? So, uh, so Creel man was
54:13
like, "Okay, we can we can do that system in color and with lots of added stuff, loot and specialized character
54:19
skills and stuff like that." And it, but it's a game, uh, that I really enjoy. Uh, mechanically, I I find it quite
54:25
addictive and play testing Creel Man was a real pleasure. Um, and so that's with
54:33
more is going to be more of the same basically like a new campaign in the same uh using the same mechanisms, but
54:38
with brand new heroes and and adventures and everything. So, I think that's going to be the thing that we'll be kicking
54:44
off with next year once all of this is is wrapped up in a bow. Well, I'd very much appreciate if you
54:50
could leave some money in my bank account, Tristan, cuz uh I already I'm like, "Yeah, I'm in already. Just just
54:56
Yeah, take my money." That's very exciting. But also nice that
55:01
you're not getting burnout from making games because I'm guessing making the
55:07
game sometimes is is the not making the game but coming up with the game is the fun bit and kind of imagine it's it's a
55:14
bit the stressful but the most fun at the same time and then you you know you've got kind of the business elements of it which potentially can't be as fun
55:20
because you're not in direct control of them I imagine. So you know it's trying to forecast where the wind's going to blow in two you know
55:27
in two weeks time. Yeah absolutely. I mean for me the stress is definitely such as it is uh
55:34
regards like international shipping uh VAT fulfillment and tariffs and all that
55:40
kind of stuff. That's that's the stress side. Uh the game development side is um
55:46
is is amazing. It's like the mo the most fun. Uh like and like if I could change,
55:52
you know, if I could rebalance it so that that was all I had to do, you know, life would be perfect. But um it's
55:59
trying to stop myself from getting too many projects going at once so that I can first of all see them all through
56:05
but also time them out so that we're not overload uh people with uh products, you know, which is what they are at the end
56:11
of the day. It's really corporaty thing to sort of say about them. Um, but the the fun thing is I get to pivot between
56:18
uh a design system that I like have developed and really enjoy like Widmore
56:23
or the Killfor games uh and then coming up with brand new systems uh and and
56:29
wanting to do brand new systems like um I want to do a 4X game, you know, and
56:34
that's like a huge uh push for me design-wise next year. Um and a science
56:41
fiction game. And so I I have loads of ideas, loads of half-developed games
56:47
that I want to like push forward, you know, to get to the next level. Um, but it's always a pleasure going back into a
56:54
system like Real Manner and playing and and mocking about inside that world and
56:59
inside those uh mechanisms. Um, so yeah, I've got it's going to be a long time
57:04
before that novel because I've still got a lot of games I want to get out there first. Um, it's nice it's nice to have a
57:11
second career choice, I suppose, if if you ever need it. But from a fan and a consumer, like I'm just, you know, it's
57:18
really nice to see that, you know, this isn't going to end anytime soon. Uh, and and you know, kind of the hunger for
57:24
that world, you know, to to create these worlds and kind of, you know, create different games within these worlds. Um,
57:30
I can't wait to see what uh what's going to happen in the future and uh and yeah, I I can't wait. It's it's going to be
57:37
awesome. Brilliant. Thanks. [Music]
TURN 5 - The Final Turn
57:47
And that wraps up our expansion episode. Uh, personally, a massive thank you to Tristan for coming on and and speaking
57:54
to me. Um, I am genuinely a huge fan of his games and very excited to see the uh
57:59
the Kickstarter fulfilled. um details of which you can find on Kickstarter uh
58:04
under the Night of Wolves and the Ruined Path uh campaign. Uh the campaign finishes on the 6th of January, so there
58:11
is still time to to back this project. We will leave all the notes of where to find Tristan Hall or Nothing Productions
58:19
and the campaign uh in the notes. So, if you're interested, then please check them out because I think uh I think
58:25
there's I think they're going to be great. If you like our content and you like what we do, please feel free to support us on coffee. Those details can
58:32
also be found in the show in the show notes along with how to get in contact us. So, all that's left is for me to say
58:38
thank you very much. And uh whose turn is it anyway?
58:46
[Music]