TURN 1 - Player Count
0:00
[Music]
0:16
Welcome to Whose Turn Is It Anyway, the show where we delve into the minds of board game creators and explore the people behind the games we love in our
0:22
expansion episodes. In this episode, we're joined by Chris Prriscott, the innovative designer behind Unfringed Co.
0:28
Games. Chris has captivated the board gaming community with titles like Zulie, Moving Wild, and Molehill Meadows. Now,
0:35
he's set to release his latest creation, Fetching Feathers, and we have him here to chat to. We last had Chris on an
0:41
episode in the late uh 2022, I think it was, JP, it was. So, it'll be great to see how things have developed um with him and Unfringed
0:48
Code Games. Welcome, Chris. Thank you very much. Thank you, Becky, JP, for having me for the second time.
TURN 2 - Introducing Chris...again & Oink Games collaboration
0:55
It's great to have you back on. you are our first returning returning uh expansion episode person. So that's a
1:01
little badge of honor there. It's kind of a special moment, I think. Yeah, it's and I imagine a lot has
1:07
changed for you as it sort of has for us really. So it's this is a really nice kind of sort of journey.
1:13
Well, I don't have hair anymore. Yeah, I've definitely definitely got a few more wrinkles and
1:18
yeah, the pictures look different, but this is an audiobased podcast, so uh fortunately for lots of us. Yeah. I
1:24
mean, it doesn't feel that long ago, right? Like it's it feels like last year, but you said 2022. So, yeah.
1:30
Yeah. That Well, that's what the when we released the episode December 2022. So, yeah. So, since then, you've released a
1:37
fantastic flip and right, Molehill Meadows. Um, Zullie has received the Oink Games treatment and been changed up a bit and
1:44
released internationally as Moving Wild. That must have been a pretty crazy journey for you. Oh, I mean, that was Yeah. beyond what I
1:51
could ever have expected for the uh for my first game. So yeah, that was amazing to, you know, see its launch in the US
1:59
and see it in shops uh in other countries. Um uh I mean just to see it
2:05
in shops generally. I mean I got Zulie in a few shops, but to see Moving Wild in shops everywhere is kind of crazy.
2:11
Yeah, very cool. be such a surreal moment some from something that's been kind of just a little germ of an idea in
2:17
your head and now you see it just just out there. How how does that feel as a designer or
2:22
something? Oh, I mean it doesn't it's Yeah, it's amazing. I mean, a recent uh a situation
2:31
recently where a friend was in Sweden um and they were picking out a board game
2:37
for their trip and his girlfriend came over and said, "Hey, can we get this one?" And it was a copy of Moving Wild.
2:44
I mean, I had no idea Moving Wild was in Sweden. Um uh and uh so yeah, I mean, it
2:50
still feels very special, especially when I see it in the shop. Like I can't not pick up a copy and have a photo and
2:57
post about it. Like it just like even just for me as a memory to like Yeah, because who knows whether it will happen
3:03
again um to be able to get a game signed with such a great publisher. So yeah, but that's that you know it's
3:08
welld deserved. It was such a great sort of basis of an idea and you know that's
3:14
just been proven by the fact that other companies can recognize that and see the the potential in it and and want to
3:20
embrace it. So that's that's really great. It was made up and when when you got that I was like a this is awesome cuz
3:27
it's such a Yeah. such a big deal and you know and getting to see that you know places like Essen and
3:34
and all that. Yeah. Fantastic. Well done. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's such a lovely company Oink as well. It's it's it's like they
3:41
have such a great name about them, right? And such a great branding and people love their games. They're kind of
3:46
like collector's items. So I couldn't I I didn't even approach them before. I never even pitched to them because I
3:51
just thought, you know, it's it's, you know, they're oink, they have their games. Uh, so yeah, for them to then
3:58
approach me was incredible. Yeah. Amazing experience. Fantastic. So, um, how do you think were
Where there any lessons learned from Zuuli for your newer games
4:05
there any lessons that you learned sort of from Zulli that you applied or things you avoided this time or particularly
4:10
did differently sort of going through uh for the new games or for the new uh
4:16
designs? Um, yeah. So I think as a designer I've definitely learned a lot from you know
4:24
having come from Zuli where I didn't know what game design was. I didn't know how to publish a game. I didn't know how
4:30
to do any of that kind of stuff. Um you know you learn a huge amount over the years of you know trying failing um
4:38
doing different bits. So yeah there was definitely um a slightly different
4:43
approach. I kind of understood a few things better. I mean one thing being the artwork. So, um, as much as there is
4:50
a huge, there seems to be a really big fan base in the UK for the Zulie artwork, it there definitely was some
4:57
feedback from other publishers that it doesn't quite match the style of the game. Like, it's quite cutesy and maybe
5:03
the game is a bit more complex. So, that was a big lesson for Fetching Feathers that uh um
5:09
I wanted to get that more in line. Um, so yeah, so that was definitely important for me though. Has your
5:17
perspective on the board game industry changed since that first release? Because it is a few years ago now, even though it doesn't feel like it, and I
5:23
feel like the board game industry has had quite a lot of ups and downs, shall we say? So, have you had to kind of sort
5:30
of think about any of that or or has that changed your opinion on how things go or?
5:36
It's a good question. Yeah, I mean one thing I've definitely I'm coming to the
5:41
conclusion of is that at least kickstarting small box games is now very
5:47
difficult because um you t unfortunately you have to bring
5:52
your audience nowadays there's gone of the days where you know passion projects could be funded and made into reality
5:59
from you know more prototype like games. So you really you have to bring your audience and you have to have a really
6:05
polished product and to do that you know it can cost a lot of money and then when
6:10
you've only got a low price game it can be difficult to get a return on that. So
6:15
that's yeah fetching fee is is a tough one for that. Um but I personally just
6:22
really like making these smaller simpler games that people can carry to their board game clubs and stuff. So yeah
6:29
that's definitely a challenge. I know that if I had targeted like, you know, a 40 game, it's a little bit easier to
6:36
bring to market in some senses, but um yeah, let's see. Um fingers crossed it
6:42
it it seems to be going well, at least on Kickstarter so far. Well, this might be a good time for you
TURN 3 - Fetching Feathers
6:47
to give us your pitch for Fetching Feathers. So, all those out there that haven't heard of it, which I'm sure can't be many people by now, but yeah,
6:54
give us your give us a lowdown for Fetching Feathers. What is it? I don't know what it is. Yes, go on. We'll play this soon. Tell
7:01
us about it. So, the tagline at least for fetching
7:06
feathers is you are attracting fancy flocks to seasonal sanctuaries. Um, so
7:14
it is a kind of almost a zuli inspired drafting game uh where you are trying to
7:20
attract these birds which are wearing rather fancy hats um to locations to score points. Um
7:28
there's kind of two bits which I think are the kind of fun elements. One is uh
7:34
there's a bonus driven kind of set collection element. So certain birds like to be with other birds. Some birds
7:40
prefer um to have certain food requirements um and score more points if you have them. And then the other puzzly
7:47
bit is the seasonal aspect. So, uh, just like in real life, a lot of birds
7:53
migrate for sometimes different reasons, but a lot of times because their food is no longer available. So, maybe the meat
8:00
runs out, so they need to migrate somewhere else where they can find some meat. Um, and exactly in fetching
8:05
feathers, you have your locations rotate and change season at the end of every
8:10
round, which will change what food is available. So you then need to migrate your birds to different locations and if
8:16
you don't find a home for them, they are going to go find a home with one of your opponents and then your opponent's going
8:21
to score points for them, which is really disheartening when that happens, I can say.
8:26
I was going to say it's it's a little bit of like um anti hate draft in like
8:31
Exactly. is mechanic. Yeah. Yeah. to help with kind of um with this kind of
8:37
aspect where you in Zulie you can very much punish people by taking the animals that they need in feathers you can't do
8:44
that because if you do take it and you can't keep it it's going to get rotated back to your opponent.
8:50
Yeah. When me and my husband played it on holiday um he we we kind of won about
8:55
half and half each which is which is pretty good for me. So, I quite liked that and I I really liked how you'd kind
9:01
of addressed some of the and I can't say they're issues in Zulie, but it can happen if you just happen not to draft
9:07
enough um of your enclosures. So, you don't have that issue with fetching feathers because you start with three
9:13
guaranteed and then you've got that kind of there's always going to be a set amount of of locations to draft then in
9:19
each subsequent round. I really liked that. Um, so you're you're not you've got to really pay attention to how many
9:25
locations you've got and how many birds you're going to have to fit in them just like you do in Zulie, but in a in a different way, especially like you
9:32
mentioned when you when when the round ends and the season changes, these birds have potentially different requirements.
9:37
So, they might not be able to stay on your little tableau anymore. And it's so gutting when you have to give away a really high scoring card and your
9:44
husband gets it, especially if they can keep it. Exactly. Yeah, but you can also try and make sure that
9:49
doesn't happen, which is quite nice cuz you can see what they've got cuz you, you know, it's an open table. But because we're only playing at two
9:56
player, I found that quite helpful cuz I only needed to look at his. I didn't need to look at a whole range of table.
10:01
So maybe that'd be more difficult for me if I had to look at a whole table worth. It kind of reminds me of uh I don't you
10:07
played a game um called Fort Chris um which is No, I know of it. I can picture the
10:13
books. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's um it's kind of a game about kids playing and you're building a
10:19
fort. The first person to build the fort wins. But it's that what I quite liked about that is it's what it reminds me of
10:25
the mechanic is if you don't play with your friends, then they'll go and bugger off and play with someone else just like
10:30
what kids do, right? If you don't give them attention, they'll go and do something else. And that's kind of represented by the cards you don't play
10:37
in your hand. They have to go out in front of your board and then others players can can have them.
10:42
And it's like that. Oh, but I need to use all of them, but I can't use all of them. And and yeah, it's that kind of
10:48
It's probably nothing like that, but it's just reminding me of that kind of There is that definite in there. Like, I really want to fit these in cuz I get
10:54
extra bonuses. But then they're going to use it. It's great. I love that. See, they've got three and they can have four in that flock. Oh, no. They're
11:00
going to get it and score that extra point. Yeah, that's that's really upsetting. That's cool. But yeah. Yeah. And in multiplayer, you only do
11:06
you only have to look one ahead as well. player only.
11:13
But yeah, it was definitely a design thing like sometimes I mean I think it's also
11:20
part of the fun of Zulie is that you you aren't guaranteed this stuff. Um but I
11:26
wanted it to be slightly more have the games play slightly more similarly, but
11:32
the strategy obviously changes every time. But you you you have a bit of prediction that you can make between
11:37
games. Um, so so talking about the creative process of of designing the games sort of how do
Discussing Chris' creative processes
11:44
you test and and sort of change the ideas that you've got, were there any concepts in Fetching Feathers that sort of didn't make the cut? I know that
11:51
you've mentioned sort of when we've chatted before that um Fetching Feathers kind of originally started as in your
11:57
mind like a potential expansion to Zulie, but you realized no, this has got more legs. It needs to have its own set
12:03
sort of thing. How do you how do you sort of test those concepts and was there anything that you really wanted to
12:08
fit in that you just couldn't squeeze in? Yeah. So, yeah, exactly. So, it started
12:16
as a an attempt to bring birds into Zuli. Um, that quickly,
12:23
you know, uh, failed in a way because a lot of the enclosures in Zuli are kind
12:28
of open topped and so how would you even keep a bird in a certain area? Um
12:34
so I was like okay and you know some of the other mechanics didn't really make sense. Um uh so I was like okay let's
12:41
actually focus on how could I I really like the core of Zuli but how could I
12:47
keep that but add something that is more specific for birds. So this is where the
12:52
kind of migration element came in. And actually this is one of the things that changed. One of the bigger changes was
12:58
for about half the time that it was kind of in development, you had migratory
13:04
birds and non-migratory birds. So you might have something which once you've placed it was locked to a location or
13:11
they're kind of islands in the game. And so like it's locked to an island and it can't go to somewhere else because it
13:16
can't migrate. Um I quite liked it. It added this interesting
13:22
element where you could and it it added interest in scoring because you could make them worth more points because they
13:28
are harder to keep between seasons. Um uh however, there was one major issue
13:36
which was basically as you're drafting, how do you know uh whether a bird has
13:43
been picked up this round or whether a bird was from the previous round? because obviously if you picked up this round, you could still move it
13:49
somewhere. Um, and as I was play testing it, people were just questioning this a
13:55
few times and I was like, "Okay, I actually had a friend say, look, you you should just try it. Just take it out."
14:01
And I thought, my immediate reaction was, "Yeah, you know, I'll try it, but I I don't think it's going to work." And
14:07
actually, whatever. The first game we played, it was, yeah, it was perfect. it was like,
14:13
"Okay, yeah, no, this before we even finished the game, we were like, this works." Um, and that got kind of cut
14:19
out. So, that was kind of a big chunk kind of taken out. Um, and obviously
14:25
everything needed to be rebalanced and all of this stuff now that um there were different birds and different migrations
14:31
and this stuff, but yeah, it's it's mostly that kind of pro process. I I
14:36
like the idea with designing in this feedback that when you hear something once, you know, you take notice, but you
14:43
don't necessarily change anything. You hear it twice, that definitely goes in the notebook as like a feedback note,
14:49
but if you hear it three times, uh that's usually a good sign that you need
14:55
to change something. You need to address it in some way. Uh because that's going
15:00
to be more regular feedback that lots of people have. Um, I think I actually picked that up from Lee from Molinarius
15:06
Games. He he always uh uses that thing and I think it's actually really smart when designing games.
15:12
I think it's a really sort of courageous thing to sort of allow someone to make you feel like maybe you haven't designed
15:18
the most perfect game the first time. That that must take a lot of because you want you've designed your baby and it's
15:23
is it it's perfect exactly how it is. So it must, you know, that must be a really hard thing to do to kind of go, okay,
15:29
I'll listen and I'll change the thing and and actually accept, oh, actually this is better. That's a really that's a
15:34
really brave and courageous thing to be able to do, I think, rather than be sort of prideful of, "No, this is perfect." Yeah. And I think when you're publishing
15:40
your own games as well, it's it's tricky because you you kind of end up in this situation where you you're making games
15:47
that you want to play. Um, and that's fine if what you want to play aligns with,
15:54
you know, a lot of people because you know that it goes well but um but you just you actually don't know whether
16:00
your whether what you like as a game does align with other people. So you do
16:05
yeah sometimes you do have to take that step back and go actually do is this
16:11
good or is this good for everybody or is this just good for me and in in which case
16:16
you can take a decision to go down just making something good for you. But it's usually better if you try and make it
16:22
more inclusive and more enjoyable for more people. Um, yeah, you're right. So, that's tough sometimes. For sure.
16:29
Yeah. A lot of designers who work with like other publishers, those publishers will either help develop a game or help
16:35
steer it or or or have that kind of feedback and knowledge and insight to to
16:41
kind of go, you know what, they love the design, but can we not do Vikings and do something else? you know, and you you
16:46
see a lot of that in in publishers where and I always feel like with the designers, they go, "Yeah, but I really like Vikings."
16:53
Yeah. That's that's what made me want to do a game and planets and stuff. How do I feel
16:58
about that? Um, but you know, I think sometimes you got to let go. Yeah. I think it's tough as a designer
17:04
as well when you when you can't have so much control. So if you are just designing and you're you know you're
17:10
pitching to publishers it's it's it's difficult to let that go I think because
17:16
just like kind of movies a lot of movies that are made are there maybe a sequel to something that
17:21
already exists or they're the same movie made again because they don't want to take the risk because they know that it
17:27
works and I think you can have some great designers that you know create something really unique um with maybe a
17:34
quite a unique theme but because it's a high risk it might get pulled back into
17:39
something which is a bit more generic. Um because there's a lot of money on the line potentially. So it's tough. I I I'm
17:46
glad I can publish stuff myself to, you know, sometimes choose where I take that risk. Um but yeah, it's definitely
17:53
harder for designers. I think in some sense the board game community can what can be incredibly sort of supportive and quite
How do you interact with the board game community and players in the design process?
18:00
vocal for for good and bad. It sounds like that you listen to a lot of people like you just mentioned their sort of
18:06
Molinaris games. You obviously have a really good relationship with them. Um, so how do you involve the players sort
18:12
of during the design process? I mean I guess you've got like a like a group of people that are play testers for you,
18:18
but I seem to remember you we were talking about talking about a design sort of thing and you were listening to a like a young is it a young lad that
18:25
helped you that gave you an idea for the the backs of the location cards? Yeah. Yeah. So to answer the first bit, so yeah, I have kind of a design group
18:32
where I am. So there's a few of designers where we will play test each other's games. Um, uh, also Sophie, who
18:40
is my wife, who also, uh, plays a lot of versions of my game. How many games of fetching feathers has
18:46
she played? Um, many enough that neither of us really want to play anymore. Um uh and
18:55
yeah, so that's mostly the the main design side. Like lots of play tests in
19:01
working with designers. Um but that kind of designers typically I found always
19:07
have some feedback. It's very difficult I found to you know come away from a
19:12
design meeting and not have any feedback. And at some point you do have to kind of say okay I can't if I keep fixing
19:20
everything this game is going to change forever because it will always introduce something that you know is slightly
19:26
tricky. So you do draw the line somewhere. So that can be sometimes tricky with other designers. Um but yeah
19:32
the other question with um uh Jack who is uh May I can't remember Instagram
19:38
handle but May from Instagram um he was a huge Zulie fan. Um, and when he came
19:45
to play Fetch and Feathers at Aircon, he noticed that the kind of the food
19:52
differs on each side of the island and he thought that maybe that could be represented by some artwork
19:58
in by in the game cuz right now the image in the game is fairly generic. And so, yeah, things like that which, you
20:05
know, I would have never thought of and you have Jack come along and present this kind of amazing idea. Um I'm not
20:13
sure whether it will be rolled into the final game or not. Um but just to have
20:18
that kind of uh feedback which you know opening that up for people to to give
20:24
that kind of stuff like aircon and places like that where I had the demo table was it's just yeah a great place
20:30
to receive that kind of feedback and it must be really nice to see people enjoying playing your games and actually
20:36
sort of watching them have fun in the way that you want to see this game played. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, for sure. And I
20:41
think um maybe you spotted at UKG as well, but for fetching feathers, I managed to get a number of hats that
20:49
match the birds in the game. I am a massive hat. I noticed the hats. Yeah,
20:55
there you go. So, um yeah. So, that was always great. So, for those of you who haven't seen the image and the artwork on these
Discussing the visuals of Fetching Feathers
21:02
cards, they are beautiful birds drawn with fantastical hats that that match
21:07
the character of the birds really well. I think I was going to chat about the sort of artwork shortly, but um yeah,
21:13
the Chris managed to find some really really good sort of versions of the hats from real life so you could put the hat
21:19
on while you were playing your birds and that was that was a really nice touch. I think it just we did. Yeah. And we absolutely did photos of
21:24
our hats. We did. And I imagine that kind of that visual impact really helps
21:30
people look and go, "What's going on over there?" and then they see this beautiful artwork with this bird with a crazy hat on and you're instantly kind
21:36
of drawn in and the artwork is so rich. Um, yeah, I think those hats are
21:41
fantastic idea. What made you want to put hats on birds? Uh, good question. So, when I was designing
21:48
it originally, um, obviously when you look at the games that are out there already, there's one big one with birds
21:55
being Wingspan. And the artwork in Wingspan is stunning. Um, and so there
22:01
was part of me that thought, you know, I could could work with an artist that could do something similar. Um, it
22:07
clearly works as a style, but you know, you do want to try something as a indie publisher to try and stand out a little
22:13
bit. So, um, I don't know. I think there was just a bit of a trend
22:20
last year that I noticed at Essen where you have this kind of I can't say the word very well but this anthropomorphic
22:26
trend where you have kind of animals humanlike animals and I didn't
22:31
want to go so far with that but I like the idea of using human like you know
22:37
fashion I guess to give the birds personalities so and hats because I wanted it like a
22:44
portrait like they kind of had their portrait their photo taken Um, hats were perfect for that because they fit. So,
22:50
yeah, basically gave the artist um the bird um the type of hat I'd like them to
22:56
wear and their personality and came back with results better than I could have
23:02
hoped for really. So, yeah. Yeah, let's let's chat about it now. So, um I hope I'm getting this correct and I
23:08
would love any listeners to tell me if it isn't. um Fisizel Joel Muhakir who is the art artist for these cards. It it
23:15
it's obviously really important to you that you give credit to the artist and the the visual impact of these cards is
23:22
really stunning and that that is so obvious when it comes through that you've really you've really spent time
23:28
and sort of having seen a couple of the little videos that you made of you can sort of see how the bird is being drawn.
23:35
So the King Fisher one and the picture of King Charles next to it, it's I
23:40
wouldn't have necessarily put that together, but when you see the picture of King Charles next to this King Fisher with a crown on, it's it's just stri
23:48
It's so uncanny. It's uncanny. Yeah, that's obviously But would I have said that was King Charles
23:54
with a with the King Fisher? No, I wouldn't. But when you see the two together, I can so see the And it's it's
24:00
beautifully done. Absolutely beautifully done. And that is it a puffin. the the the one with a sort of fisherman's hat.
24:06
You It's just soul Yeah. The puffin has like a Willie hat. Yeah. Yeah. Willie hat on the puffin and then
24:13
like a fisherman's hat on the um on the osprey. But the uh Yeah. I mean the actually I had a good story about the
24:18
kingisher was that I originally part of the specification for it was you know to
24:24
make it like a British royal family member. And I have some of the art. I was trying to send some of the original
24:29
art because um Joel made it very jowlly. This kingfisher had so many jowls. Um,
24:36
and I was like, it's I like it. I mean, it really matches our royal family quite
24:42
well, but maybe let's tone it back a little bit to make it a little bit more cute. Um, uh, but yeah, so I'll maybe
24:49
share that at some point. But yeah, but like another interesting part on that was that now that I've had some international interest for the game, um
24:57
obviously for the the English word king fisher, you know, it's like play on
25:02
words wearing a crown. Um it turns out that in many countries it's not it doesn't translate as king fisher. So in
25:10
German it's I think ice vogle which is like iceberg and I think in French it's
25:16
something else completely. So, um, yeah, something I didn't realize and, you know, another lesson to learn. I mean, I
25:22
think the art is still enough to sell it, but obviously they don't they're not going to get the the pun or like the
25:28
play on words a little bit. Um, so yeah, I don't think that's necessarily
25:34
necessary. Perhaps it's just a fun little addition, isn't it? But um I yeah
25:39
and I think that talking about language and the use of it, you could absolutely
25:44
play this game with someone who didn't speak the same language as you at all. And as long as you could make yourself
25:50
understood, this means this, this means this. You could play with in a multilingual group, which is which is
25:56
really nice, isn't it? It's nice when you can do that. It's nice when something doesn't rely on a whole barrel full of text or or
26:02
constantly looking up stuff, which I know a lot of sort of some of the games that the other guys play in the groups do require a huge amount of text. Too
26:10
many bones being one being, you know, full of your little keywords. Keyword kind of. Yeah, you don't need any of that. And you can you can learn
26:16
to play it in Well, we learned to play it. It was less than two minutes and we totally understood what was going on,
26:22
which is really nice. There you go. That's good to know from Zullie fans to know that if you've played Zulie, you'd also pick this up
26:28
quickly. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I put a lot of work into kind of making sure that even the graphic design um I obviously
26:36
Zulie has text um uh which makes it slightly inaccessible for some people.
26:42
And so I tried hard to make sure that all of the icons and the graphic design of the cards as well are almost
26:49
instantly recognizable as to what their bonuses do and what the card means and this kind of stuff. and and that was I
26:56
think that did limit the design space a little bit because you know there's maybe some bonuses that could be
27:02
slightly more extravagant but then it's very difficult to translate that into a
27:08
into a symbol and I find that if you yeah and if you need like a reference card for your symbol you then kind of
27:15
miss the point of having the symbol in the first place if you've just got like a card next to you which you're reading
27:20
the text from. So, um, I tried to keep it in line. Ed tried to have it so that
27:26
it it worked as well as it could. And there's been tweaks along the way, but I think it's in a nice place now where
27:32
most people understand the cards uh, at first glance, I guess. So, bringing that kind of changing
Adding more layers of strategy and depth
27:38
location sort of thing, it obviously introduces a new layer of strategy than than Zulie perhaps has. um sort of how
27:44
did you arrive at that mechanic or you said you sort of made it almost realistic? So you tried it when you
27:50
didn't have that and you just found that it worked so much better when you had this sort of alternating alternating um
27:56
food resource or or whatever or you get more points you can stack more birds if it's winter cuz they like hanging out
28:03
together in winter. Was that was that just because you wanted to make it thematic or you just thought actually I I can ramp up the kind of I don't want
28:09
to use the word complexity cuz I wouldn't want to put people off that think oh actually people you know I play this with my family and my kids wouldn't
28:15
be able to get anything more than Zulie. I think if you can play Zulie you can absolutely play this but there is
28:21
definitely that ad more advanced kind of complexity but not in a way that makes
28:26
it difficult how it must have been difficult trying to balance that like you were just saying. Yeah. Yeah. So actually I had um the main I
28:34
got asked a similar question recently and I I managed to kind of think about what it was and actually for a long time
28:42
I've really liked features in video games. I can't remember exactly which I
28:47
think it was one of the settlers games, quite an old game where it would change from day to night and then night back to
28:54
day and there was a nice you would you would have different things happen right so you you couldn't do the same thing at
29:00
night and day let's say like the crops didn't grow during the night time um and I really like that mechanic and I and I
29:07
hadn't seen it in so many games where you have this kind of simple binary switch where you go from on off or
29:14
whatever day to night. Um, and I think the Pokemon games did a version of it as well where you could like catch
29:19
different Pokémon at nighttime as opposed to daytime and this kind of thing. So, originally that was a kind of
29:24
idea for Zulie expansion was like zulli day and night because I'd been to like these late at the zoo
29:32
like at London Zoo and different animals become more lively at nighttime, maybe some are more lively in the day and I
29:38
thought, oh, you know, that could be a really interesting play. Um, and so it basically stemmed from that. Like those
29:45
few things I've always really liked it as a concept switching between these things. I I, as you may notice from a
29:51
lot of my games, I seem to have an obsession with threes. So there's a lot of it's always three rounds or three
29:57
something. So like on off on or off, on off or whatever. So I like that concept.
30:03
This kind of imbalance between you don't always play the same number of things. Um, yeah. And then basically for birds,
30:10
day and night could work because you do have some birds which are more active at nighttime, but actually it felt better
30:17
to have it as a seasonal thing. Um, and I really liked then because you slightly have the gimmick in the game where you
30:24
physically rotate your locations, which is almost like um, uh, not exactly, but
30:30
like the earth rotating or the seasons changing and this kind of stuff. Yeah. Yeah. No, I I think it that works
30:35
sort of really perfectly and it helps you kind of come to grips with this is
30:40
different than but it'll be the same again in a minute. That kind of like you were saying the on off on or off. I I
30:46
really liked that and it it makes it you have to modify something because it's going to change but don't modify too
30:51
much because it's going to change back and that's a really interesting I don't know if now might be a good ch good time to talk about your other kind of bonus
TURN 4 - D.O.T.
30:58
project. Do you call it dot or do you call it dot? What how do you prefer it to be referred to? Uh yeah. So I don't
31:05
mind actually dot or do Yeah. Really? So that's your kind of surprise bonus
31:11
release, isn't it? One game wasn't enough. No, he wants to release two. I mean, make make life difficult for yourself.
31:17
Why? Why not? I love it. But um yeah, a very quick
31:22
pitch for that one so that people know what it is. It's uh it was a yeah, slightly regretting it now trying to publish two
31:28
games at the same time. But um I'd had this basically this idea um for a while
31:35
uh where I like the idea of a pool that
31:40
you have yourself and an area that you own and all players own an area and then a certain shared area in the middle. Um,
31:48
and I and I I liked it in a way that you have this really interesting decision where you
31:54
go, do I play into the middle knowing that it could benefit my opponents or do I play into my own pool where, you know,
32:00
benefits just me, but maybe I want to play something hitting to punish the opponents, but everyone is doing this at the same time. So, I'd had this idea for
32:07
a while and um had actually developed it up to dot as it is now. Um, and the plan
32:15
wasn't to publish it straight away, but uh, kind of to loop back to kind of this
32:21
small box problem on Kickstarter. Um, being able to have two games at the same
32:28
time allows me a little bit more to potentially spend a bit more on ads to
32:34
try and bring a bigger audience. Um, and it's something I've seen companies like All Play do. to all play a lot of time.
32:39
They have kind of small box games, but they always launch like three at a time. And and I suspect it's for a similar
32:46
reason that it helps. It helps a lot. I mean, I can pass a lot back to the backers because the freight
32:51
is coming from the same factory. So, the shipping is not exactly halfed, but much cheaper for me, which I can pass on to
32:58
people and keep the games cheap, but also um yeah, allow for me to help bring
33:03
more of an audience to the project as well. So yeah, it was a bit of a yeah, let's let's try it. Um, without really
33:12
thinking that, you know, making one game is a lot. Fully polishing two games is
33:18
is quite tough. Um, but it's getting there. It's almost done. Yeah, it's it's really interesting. So, I've
33:23
played a promo version and it's very very different to your other games. So,
33:28
they're very thematic. The animals that are involved in them are really a big part of the game. Where dot is
33:36
I guess they are anthropomorphic dots, aren't they? They do have a face, but they're red dots and black dots. Yeah,
33:42
they're little kind of I don't you could say they were critters, maybe. I don't know. Maybe that's going too far. They're they're little faces. Um, black
33:49
dots, red dots, and blue dots. And you have these on your cards, and like you said, you're playing them into a shared area and into a your own personal area.
33:56
And I love the fact that on the first round you're trying to get big differences in those numbers. The second
34:02
round the minimal difference and then the third round big difference again. So I I can totally see how yes that fits in
34:08
with your sort of three phase and flow. Yeah. But it's it hasn't got a like a it's not an
34:14
animal theme or or it is it's like a lovely mathematical and I'm not saying
34:19
that to put people off. That is an absolutely this is why it's great. It's a mathematical puzzle of Yeah. Like
34:25
you're you're right. Do I do I definitely make this so I'm going to win this first round? Possibly. But you you
34:31
still never know what your opponent's going to play. And I liked the fact that you're only ever really watching one other person cuz you're playing as a
34:37
two-player game. You haven't got to sort of try and look at the table dynamics and all of those things cuz that isn't involved. And I
34:43
liked that. And again, me and my husband have got very very sort of similar scores. We're only usually one point out
34:49
of each other, which is great cuz that makes me feel quite I've achieved something if I've got almost as many
34:55
points as Curly. So, that's quite nice. But, um, yeah, it's been it's been very close, which it's sort of like, oh, I
35:01
need the edge for this. So, I think I just need to level up my brain thinking, but it's not crazy level of complexity.
35:07
You're just counting numbers really. The the whole the complexity is h how do I You're right. Do I share these colored
35:15
dots or do I try and keep them to myself? Yeah, I really enjoyed it. I really, really enjoyed it.
35:20
Yeah. Awesome. Well, very glad to hear. I could imagine if if someone saw those, they wouldn't imagine they were made by
35:26
the same person because they have got a very different feel, I think. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, it's it's definitely more experimental in that
35:33
way. So, it's it's definitely it was something which I thought for a while I I spent a lot of time trying to attach a
35:40
theme to it. Um, and you know, given I'd done a lot of animal stuff to try and attach an animal theme, but all of the
35:48
stuff that I came up with felt forced and felt like it actually distracted a
35:54
little bit because it didn't fit perfectly. Um, it get cuz kind of like you're explaining, you're you're almost
36:01
getting pairs. So sometimes you want pairs. So you want your things to pair up with stuff in the middle and then you
36:08
don't want your stuff to pair up with stuff in the middle. Um, and actually the only real theme I could come up with
36:14
that for that was kind of if you're dancing, so sometimes you want a partner for your dancing, but then maybe you're
36:20
break dancing. So if you're break dancing, you don't want partner if you're break dancing. I don't know. And and even that is a bit loose. Anyway, so
36:29
um, in the end I was like, no, okay, leave it without a theme. Keep it kind of semi-abstract, but um, make it cute
36:37
still. So it still has like a kind of cutish design. the color palette you've chosen is is perfect for that. It's not
36:44
abrasive, but the colors are still really easy to determine. And I I'm not a color impaired person, but I can
36:50
imagine that they're still um strong enough and we the colors are strong and pale enough to be able to determine even
36:56
if you you do have some color impairment. Um yeah, it and it's a very small box. I don't know. I know that
37:02
this is just the the prototype that I've seen and I I can guess it's going to be a small box kind of game. You can
37:07
probably fit it in a coat pocket, take it down the pub, you've just got 18 cards each and that's you don't need a
37:14
ton of space or what it's very easily played in in small places which I think is a there's definitely a market for
37:21
that and I think regarding the theme we can tell so you know when you're playing a game you know if a theme has been pasted
37:27
on I mean we've all played games like that play many a game so I don't think games always need a theme and that's coming
37:33
from me who loves loves a animal theme so I quite like the fact that you have
37:39
started to diversify in that as well and go you know what this is an abstract game we'll make it cute like you said
37:45
but it is abstracted and it's cool that you're trying these different things like you say being experimental and I
37:50
think as you said earlier about taking risks I'm not saying it's like a massive risk but you you you're willing to try
37:57
different things and that's exciting I think for a designer right is that I'm going to put something like that out there see how it goes cuz you never know
38:04
how things are going to be in the years, two years, 5 years time and you trying all these different things and you might
38:09
go, you know what, it's not going to be always animal games. I might try something like this and what the hell.
38:15
Yeah. Wow. Yeah. And and I was surprised. I was so I I it was one of the games which I was
38:21
more nervous about putting out because it is a bit more experimental and because it doesn't quite match what I've
38:27
done before. Um, so yeah, I was surprised even though it's, you know, published four games or will have
38:32
published four games. Um, I still get the nerves for it. Um, but I'm I'm I'm
38:38
very happy with how people have responded like and I think like you mentioned Becky, it's not
38:45
necessary to everyone's taste. Um, which you know is the case with all games really, but um, the people that like it
38:52
really like it and it's actually had a surprising amount of publisher attention as well. So publishers have wanted to
38:57
look at it. Hopefully it will lead to you know some international contracts and stuff but um yeah I think that two
39:04
player quick game which you gives you enough thinky puzzle. I mean you can
39:09
teach it in a minute 2 minutes um but you can just play a few games in the
39:14
evening. Um uh yeah I it's yeah I wanted to try something new and I like yeah
39:21
didn't want to attack on a theme. So yeah, let's let's see. So far, fingers
39:26
crossed, people enjoy it as much as my other games as well. Do you feel and you mentioned a little
Do you feel the pressure on keeping up with the success of past designs?
39:31
bit to that, alluded to a bit, do you feel the pressure now to create, you know, some masterpiece game because
39:36
you've had such fantastic, phenomenal successes from the games you've brought out, you were just sort of, it sounded like you feel, oh my goodness, now
39:42
there's a real sort of the pressurees on to to deliver this thing. That must be
39:48
quite Is that quite scary or does it make you strive for creating the best
39:54
thing or a bit of a mixture of all of it? Um, it's it's uh it's been tricky. It's
40:02
definitely been tricky. So, Zuli and Molehill Meadows, those ideas kind of came to me on an evening and they barely
40:10
changed from when they released. like it it sounds now I realize that's not the
40:16
normal process but those two games at least you know they were within two days they were kind of the games they ended
40:22
up being um with Fetching Feathers for a long time I I called it like you know
40:27
the tricky third album like there was a lot I felt the pressure I really felt
40:33
the difficulty in um one holding because the other two
40:39
games have done so well to make something as good or better. Um, which,
40:45
you know, isn't realistic. I can't always make stuff that's as good or better. It's it's it's going to be
40:50
that's exceptionally difficult as time goes on. So, I mean, maybe as good, but
40:56
maybe not better. Um, so yeah, it's it was tough. I mean, the development on this took
41:03
uh I mean, it was definitely last year that I the first version, maybe like November or so, and I only really
41:09
wrapped the final version in kind of
41:14
yeah, April kind of time. So, it took it took at least 6 months, which was much
41:21
longer than my other games to get to a final version. Um, but it kind of goes in waves like some of the my other
41:27
stuff. I mean, I even chatting chatting with Sophie this evening and potentially have an idea for actually game number
41:34
six, but um but that was again very quick and seems to you know have just
41:39
come and been like actually that should just work. Um but yeah, I don't know
41:44
maybe maybe you're right in in that the there was just a barrier maybe a mental
41:50
barrier as well where I put a lot of pressure on myself to to make something as good for the next
41:56
game. I hope it's got there eventually, but it took me longer to get there than it did
42:02
for my other games. I think if the crowds at the UK GE have anything to say about how popular Fetching Feathers is going to be, I
42:09
think you'll have no problem because they were sold out within minutes, weren't they, when you were able to sort
42:14
of sell a very few copies on each day. They were gone in a second. And I and I made it a beline to get over there and
42:20
Yep. No chance because it was so it was so packed and that's that was so lovely to see. Yeah.
42:26
Yeah. People sprinting. I mean, I was I saw them. I thought it might be popular, but I
42:32
didn't expect it to be as popular and the second day I was genuinely worried
42:38
about people hurting themselves because they were sprinting around these corners and almost, you know, like a race car
42:44
going sideways. Um, drifting around. It was a bit of a Yeah, I mean, it was a bit of both, right? I mean, it's
42:50
obviously lovely that so many people wanted a copy. Um it was tough to tell
42:58
people that I had sold the number for the day like so it was a kind of positive and negative to tell some
43:04
people in the and I could see some people were really upset and so um yeah that didn't that didn't feel so good but
43:12
you know yeah it was a good experiment. I'm not sure whether I'd do it again. I don't
43:18
know. I I like I don't want to disappoint people. I want people to feel good when they come to my stand. So,
43:24
it creates a hype, but that is, like you say, it's always going to come with a with a sort of unpleasant feeling
43:29
underneath, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. The board game industry is constantly evolving. Um, what trends do you see
What are your predictions on future designs and themes coming up?
43:36
shaping the future? You've mentioned the anthropomorphization. Is that even a word? Have I got that? Of animals with
43:42
funny hats and stuff. I couldn't repeat that word if I'm not going to try and do it a second time.
43:47
Animals that look like humans and things. You said you saw quite a lot of that in essence. So we found that just it randomly seem games seem to release
43:56
at the same time that are not the same game but have a similar theme. So for example the you know the last week of
44:02
summer and um the class of 80 oh goodness I can't remember the number now 80 something the Pavson games. Um
44:09
now we know that games take a little while to develop. So clearly there's some there's some something in the water
44:15
that makes that I don't know that theme a thing. What do you think? How do you
44:20
feel that that might what do you think might be coming in the future? How do you see that? Yeah. I mean, I'd love to know as well
44:27
because I also see these trends and it makes it makes it makes me wonder if I'm on a mailing
44:33
list. I'm not on the mailing list for some publisher group that, you know, says, "Oh, Caffy B is this year." This
44:39
year is Cathy Bar games. Um Um I don't know. I think so. I've noticed a lot of jewel and duo
44:48
kind of games and that actually didn't play into my obviously DOT is like a two-player game but
44:53
you were in on it. You were in on it. Maybe I was in on it on that one. Um but
44:59
uh yeah, that's happened a lot this year in terms of coming up. It's I mean I I I
45:04
would just be guessing and usually you see it at Essen when you go to Essen you can you can get a feel quite quickly for
45:10
what is popular. Um my prediction though because I think all of this stuff comes
45:16
in cycles is that I think that um Xenon rights or flip rights rolling rights I
45:23
think they're going to make a return. So I think we had the hype through co I think they dipped a lot.
45:29
Um I think I think they might be make a comeback because I think people really
45:34
enjoy them still. I they're still one of my favorite types of games. Um, I think that people enjoy that and maybe it's
45:42
the cozy element as well. Um, that you can just come back after a day's work
45:47
and it's competitive, but actually you still feel like you've solved your own
45:52
puzzle. There's something quite nice about that. Um, yeah, there you go. You heard it here first.
45:58
Yeah. Rolling right 2026. Yeah. One thing that I've noticed that
The importance of lack of downtime in the designs
46:03
all of your game shares is this kind of simultaneous play which is absolutely in my wheelhouse because I just lose
46:10
interest. Lose interest is the wrong word, but lose concentration more than anything. If you've got to wait a half
46:16
an hour for your turn, I've already forgotten what I'd intended to do and now I've just like, "Oh, do you know what? Whatever." No one likes that, Becky. No one likes
46:23
to wait half hour for their turn. But it just it happens though, doesn't it? It really commonly happens.
46:28
Especially the more complex the game, the more decisions. I get it. I just don't like it. Is that a conscious
46:33
choice that you make simultaneous play games or does it just happen that that's worked perfectly with the games that
46:39
you've you've made? Yeah. No, it's it's very conscious. So, it is something for I mean I'm slightly
46:46
bending it for game five, but um it's all the games up to now. It's been part
46:51
of my my design philosophy, but also as Unfringed only publishing simultaneous
46:57
games. And it's a similar reason to like you said, I've been at too many too many tables of people playing board games
47:04
where maybe it doesn't take 30 minutes to come back to you, but you can see people after they've taken their turn,
47:10
they kind of their mood just starts to drop and they start to get bored and they start to be uninterested in it and
47:16
then it gets back to them and they're not really sure what they're doing anymore because they've kind of lost concentration a little bit. And I don't
47:22
want people to come away from the from the hobby thinking that about board
47:29
games. And I don't think simultaneous is the only way to do that obviously, but I think it helps a lot um that you always
47:36
engaged with simultaneous players. You you might not like it, but then you play a different game. But I think it's uh
47:43
yeah, a very conscious decision to do that. Um I think I may loosen it slightly. I mean, ever so slightly. I
47:50
don't think I'll ever have like a proper turnbased game. I say that maybe, who knows what the future holds, but I'd
47:56
like to stick to kind of simultaneous games, but it's very difficult. It's
48:01
become uh there's not actually that many mechanics which work
48:07
that well simultaneously and you get into a lot of timing problems, a lot of sequencing problems. Um, uh, yeah, I
48:15
mean, even in DOT, you could argue there's there's a part in DOT where players have to discard the other
48:22
players cards. And actually, that is technically turnbased, but, you know, it
48:28
takes 10 seconds, so it's not truly simultaneous, but it it's 10 seconds, so
48:34
it's it's not much. Um, but yeah. Yeah, it's definitely a conscious thing. Um,
48:39
uh, and it helps with designing. keeps my mind focused as to like what kind of games I can design because it restricts
48:45
the design space a lot. Yeah, we've chatted before where people have found that more parameters are actually kind of helpful because it it
48:51
makes you immediately be able to discount quite a lot of stuff. So, I think that's I I would guess as a
48:57
designer that makes that sort of harder but easier in a way because you you know
49:03
lots of stuff are just like well that's just a no. Yeah, exactly. And I think it's um I like a sign of half plan at the moment
49:11
is that fetch and feathers is quite similar to Zuli style, but I would like to have a game in unfringed catalog
49:18
which kind of represents a lot of the different mechanics. So like the flip and right is one thing
49:25
drafting with this thing. I'm not quite sure what you call dot. It's a weird one
49:30
that doesn't really exist so much already. Um uh and then the next one
49:35
should be like a bluffing bribing kind of game. So um
49:41
yeah, try and do a little bit of everything to try and you know give people an introduction to a lot of these
49:49
mechanics. Yeah. Hobby game mechanics that um Y. Do you have a favorite bird card? Which
49:56
one is your favorite bird card? I got asked this quite recently as well
50:02
and actually I was I I didn't know I didn't know and I think I said puffing
50:08
because it's just like he's going to cry. I love that. Yeah. Um I I think the puffin and the
50:16
king fisher I have a soft spot for. I don't think the peacock is my favorite.
50:21
It's maybe in mid tier, but uh it's become so iconic with the game now that
50:28
it's uh it's on the front of the box because it's the iconic fetch your feathers bird. Um but yeah, it's tough.
50:35
How about you guys? Did you have a favorite? The puffin. I do love the puffin cuz I feel sorry for him because he looks sad
50:40
and I always like the sad looking looking ones. H I think the king fisher. I just think
50:47
it's so perfect. I think for me it was really solidified when I saw that artwork of how they were looking at the
50:54
you know Joel was looking at the picture of the kid and it's like yes of course it's of course it's Charles of course it is and I can't not see that when I look
51:01
at it now which is really really lovely I'm going down team Cup team cup yeah fair enough
51:07
it's the one I see probably the most so I probably been indoctrinated by by the image um but again you also got got that
51:15
out on is it Tabletop magazine is it fairly recently as well. I think you had a big splash of Yeah. Yeah.
51:22
It's a real striking visual image, isn't it? It's great for for that. That's what you want from a peacock,
51:27
right? Yeah. Absolutely. All the colors, baby. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's quite
51:32
international bird as well, actually. Yes. Yeah. So, I think it spreads across many many countries recognize it.
51:37
Whereas a kingisher, as we found out, is not a kingish everywhere. Recognizable.
51:43
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you have any collaborations or projects then that you can tease for us?
TURN 5 - Future Teasing & Board Game Chat
51:49
You just sort of mentioned a bit of bluffing there, so I think it sounds like you've got a little a little thing in the back, but can you can you say
51:56
anything about it? Yeah, so I've not really announced anything about it. Um, but it's kind of
52:02
I actually did a a six player play test last night and that went down very well.
52:08
Um, so, uh, what I can say probably at this point is it's a
52:15
clever bluffing game. So, again, kind of to fit into, uh, my general games where it's not
52:22
super simple. There's always a bit to it. So, I say it's a clever bluffing game because there's some information
52:27
um, about a forgetful waiter and some
52:33
uh, dustedly customers. Um, so kind of restaurant themed. Um, uh, yeah,
52:41
but it's it's really nice. It definitely focuses a lot on and it wasn't intentional. It focuses a lot on kind of
52:48
table talk and surprisingly role play. So, every time I've tested it with
52:53
people, people really get into character. Um, and obviously that always
52:58
leads to really good table interaction around the table. Yeah, very excited to to bring that to
53:04
hopefully air con to demo it at Air. So, well, weirdly
53:10
weirdly you mentioned this as a as a theme because not well a couple of days ago I went to a restaurant and the the
53:17
waitress did the thing that I only normally see in America, which is when they take their take your order, a
53:23
complex order of many food items, drinks and stuff for many people, but never write anything down. and and you're
53:29
going, "They're gonna mess this up." And in America, they never mess it up. They get it right every time. They messed it
53:35
up. You knew they were gonna mess it up. They messed it up. Something was wrong. This didn't happen. And uh Yeah. And
53:42
it's like, so yeah, weirdly, I just had a call back to that experience where you explaining this game.
53:48
Kind of the I mean, it's inspirational. So, I I won't lie. It is my It is a theme which
53:55
people will recognize quite quickly. Yeah. Um, kind of similar to what you're saying, kind of similar to what happens
54:02
at the end of a end of a meal typically when you go out with a group of friends. So,
54:07
very much kind of, you know, driven from stuff people know. Um, and uh,
54:13
yeah, so I think that's actually helped a lot when teaching the game because people get into it quite quickly. But
54:20
yeah, there'll be more information once I have a proper demo version and stuff. Um, I'm intrigued. I'm intrigued.
54:28
Fantastic. Well, we've got a few little kind of lightning round questions just to perk it up towards the end if you're
54:34
happy with that. So, interesting one now. Okay, here we go. Would you rather design a game everybody
54:40
loves but you secretly dislike or a game that you adore but only 10 people ever play?
54:47
Um, be selfish. I think it has to be that 10 people ever
54:53
play. I think it has to be one that I love. Yeah. Um, nice. That's That's the really lovely
54:59
answer. Okay. You get an unlimited budget but only three components to make a game.
55:05
What are you picking? It's almost got It's got to be, doesn't it? Cuz you It has very And
55:11
cards. It has to be cuz I think Yeah. All my games have cards. Um cards.
55:18
I would pick something jazzy like um is it like a rondelle or whatever? one of these wheels just because, you know,
55:25
they're fun to play with. Um, what else do I like? I'm actually a
55:30
big fan of um I don't even know what you call them. The little things that you put in front of yourself to hide what
55:37
you're doing. Oh, players. Like a screen. Yeah.
55:42
Card, screen, and a wheel. I'm not sure what game you'd make out of that.
55:47
Yeah. Okay. Would you rather your games be played only by hardcore gamers or only
55:53
by families? Uh, I think only by families. Yeah. Oh, that's nice cuz you get more
55:59
memories, don't you? I like that. I like that. All right. Would you rather win a prestigious design award or sell a
56:06
million copies? Oh, what? Sell out to the man. Oh, that's tricky. I mean, the problem
56:14
is you just think how many how much opportunity you could have to make even more games with a million pounds. Um Um
56:24
Oh, I actually don't know on that one to be honest. That is a tricky one. The thing is ultimately I don't think
56:29
either of them would be I don't know. For me, I find that the
56:36
the the main buzz is watching people play the game. So maybe the reward is
56:42
more likely, but actually because some organization decided that it deserves, it doesn't mean as much as, you know,
56:48
having actual players play it and enjoy it. So maybe I'd go slightly more to the reward.
56:54
Yeah, I I think you can you can say no to both. I think that's keeping your integrity there. That's right.
57:03
What would hurt your feelings more? Someone absolutely house ruling your game so much that it's unrecognizable or
57:10
never open never opening it from the shrink wrap and leaving it on the callax with dust on
57:17
what's more Oh, it's got to be the house rules. I I don't mind. I mean, I've never had anyone do it to the extreme, but um
57:25
yeah, I I'm definitely pro house rules. So, um, definitely that one. Okay. So, you'd rather that one. You're
57:32
saying you'd rather the house rules and fair enough. Would you rather be remembered for one
57:37
legendary classic or 20 pretty good games? This is the last one. Now, I'm not going
57:43
to ride. These are these are these are tough questions. Um, I think a leg I think
57:52
legendary classic. Yeah. Nice. So, he's going to make terraforming Mars and never make any more than than 20, you know.
58:00
I'm surprised he didn't go ARA. Oh, well, come on. Oh, I'm I'm I'm feeling a bit
58:06
disconcerted with Arnova right now. It's been a week and I haven't heard you say the words Arnova. Well,
58:14
just saying I did lose my last game, so you know, maybe it's bit Yeah, I'm a bit salty.
58:21
I still need to play it. I still haven't played it even with the comparisons to Zuli. Yeah, I do need to play it.
58:26
We talked about this three years ago. I'm sure I'm getting a Deja. Yeah, probably. But yeah, this will be a bit of a you know, I say
58:33
I was going to mention it in a next podcast, but we decid we did decide to do the all-in pledge to the 3D edition
58:40
super we and we flip so many. No, we're absolutely not doing it. No, we're not doing it. Maybe we are. Look how much it
58:46
is. No, we're not doing it. We're not doing it. And then we decided to do it on the way back home from our holiday.
58:51
absolutely jetlagged and just like you know how many minutes it whatever before the end of that campaign did you
58:56
decide was it was only like the two days before okay yeah so we did leave it till the we we really actually did decide not to do it
59:03
a couple of times and then change our mind so I'm sort of feeling a bit ared sort of like oh god buyers remorse kind
59:10
of a thing so you know it but yeah you should still play I did hear you on the last podcast Alman
59:15
and so I'm glad you made the firm decision now that you're going ahead we decided we weren't and then I heard
59:22
Curly when I was listening to one of the episodes and he said we were and I thought why maybe we should and that was sort of what convinced us to do it again
59:28
and then we were back on the no camp. It's been it's been up and down. It's been up and down. Chris, it's been such a pleasure talking to you. It's amazing
Thanking Chris
59:34
having you back and and sort of hearing about fetching feathers and your journey as a as a designer. For listeners who
59:40
want to check out fetching feathers and dot um where's the best place to find you? What should they be looking for? So
59:48
yeah, well thank you very much firstly for having me as well Becky and JP. Um a pleasure as always. Um but yeah, the um
59:56
best place at the moment is on Kickstarter. So if you search for Fetching Feathers, um I think it's
1:00:03
fetching feathers and dot, but fetching feathers it should come up. Um or on my website unfringed.co
1:00:10
uh you'll also be able to find a link to the Kickstarter on there or sign up to the mailing list. um and @ unfringed
1:00:17
things on social media. So yeah, again, if you want to reach out, just send me a
1:00:22
message on there and um yeah, I'll get in contact and you can still buy your little plushy
1:00:27
sloth, can't you? From from Zulie fame cuz cuz I saw it on your website yesterday.
TURN 6 - The Final Turn
1:00:33
There's another place where you can find Chris as well, which is uh it's plug time. It's on our Discord server. So, we
1:00:40
have a Discord server which is fairly new. We, you know, it's in entry starting mode and we're trying to get it
1:00:46
going. But Chris, you've joined. You joined the Frey. So, yeah, come and come and join in Discord and come and chat to
1:00:52
Chris cuz he's in there. He's there. Yeah, which is great. Thanks so much, Chris. It's been lovely
1:00:57
talking to you again. Yeah. Take care, mate. Cool. Thank you both. And have a lovely evening.
1:01:02
You, too. Thank you so much. Heat. Heat.