TURN 1 - Player Count
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Whose turn is it anyways excited to announce the Devon board game weekend at the Fox and Hounds Hotel in Edgesford
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near Exat. This event begins on Friday the 17th of October to Sunday the 19th of October. For more details on how to
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get tickets, follow the link in our show notes and we'll love to get a game with you there.
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[Music]
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Hello and welcome to Whose Turn Is It Anyway, a podcast where we talk about our favorite board games. My name is Adrian. I have with me the owner of the
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Cheesy Bangers. That's Becky. Hi, everyone. And uh judging from your playlist, do you like some cheesy bangers as well?
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That's our guest, Sean. Hi. I I I certainly do. That's very true.
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Cool. So, this is one of our expansion episodes where we get to talk to uh some lovely members of the board game
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community. So, we have Sean with us from Allies or Enemies Games. He's here to talk a little bit about um some upcoming
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projects and also just the life of a indie publisher as well and sort of go through a few bits and pieces there. So,
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how you doing today, Sean? I'm doing great. Yeah, another uh another beautiful hot London day. When I
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moved here, everyone said, "Watch out, London is so hot all the time, right? famously worldwide is what it's known
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for. Uh yeah, it's been scorching. So, I am I'm scorching. I got a fan on me, so
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if anyone hears that in the background, don't worry. I'm not on an airplane. Uh but yeah, it's uh but other than that,
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and even because of that, I think I'm doing great. Good. That's great to hear.
TURN 2 - Shawn Hoult's Turn
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[Music]
How did Shawn get into the hobby?
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So, do you want to just tell us a little bit about about you and sort of Allies or Enemies Gaming and kind of a little
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bit about how you got into the the hobby itself, this glorious board gaming hobby? Yeah. Yeah. So, Allies or Enemies is it
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started out as a YouTube channel. So, that's my wife Jess and I. Um, we do a YouTube channel where we talk about
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games, we review games, we do top 10 list, all that fun stuff, just like what you guys do as well, except uh on
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YouTube instead of on podcast. And so, we've been doing that for fiveish years, but it's always been in the back of my
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head um to design games ever since I was a little kid. And really, gaming started for me with my mom. I used to every day
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I'd come home from school, play games with my mom um pretty much constantly. And so that started with stuff like
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Careers and Globe Trotters, which I think only was released in Canada and
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Sweden. Um, yeah, I was going to say that that isn't ringing a bell for for me, but No, if you could find it.
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The nostalgia fact. I remember it being very very good. I do not know if it holds up. You traveled
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around the world and you got these keys to the city and you could gamble in Macau. It was a it was a really cool
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game. Um, but yeah, so I I started off playing games with my mom all the time and then kind of really got into it
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around like ticket to ride time. Um, and it really built up and then traveled a
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lot. So I kind of lost that a little and then my wife and I uh just a bit before
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CO were in Bristol and we didn't have anything to do and we went to a board
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game cafe and played Everddale just cuz it looked Is it chance encounters? Yeah. Yeah. and just cuz Everdell looks
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so cute. And then right after that, we went into a board game store and I asked for their biggest box of game, which I
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would never do now. Uh so then they sold me Gloom Haven uh on the spot.
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I'll do it. Yeah. And it's a it's a big box. All right. That was our deep dive all the way back into board games was Everddale and Gloom
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Haven. And then it's just um ballooned since then and gotten crazy. So yeah, I
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think uh in the last couple years I really decided, you know, I'm finally going to really dive into this designing
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thing and have been designing a whole bunch of games, but these are the two uh
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that I'm going to talk about here. The main one being Last Week of Summer, but I got another one to Shakespeare the card game I want to mention a little. Um
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and so those are the two that the first two that have really come out of that and we're really excited to be to be
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actually like making a game. And it's scary, too, cuz you're, you know, you're in the hobby, but you're on the other
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side of the fence, right? Where you're just talking about stuff, reviewing stuff. Um, and then you put out your own
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thing and you think, "Oh boy, like now I'm opening those doors to all the folks like me." It's like when uh Roger Eert,
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I think he wrote um the Valley of the Dolls movie. I think this is true. If
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this is not true, I'm going to look like a fool, but I think he wrote one of these movies and it was terrible. Well,
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it's kind of a great cult classic, but um I don't think it was beloved by critics, and I feel like you see that
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happen sometimes. So, you know, as as a critic, you're always a little worried, but I'm also very excited to get this
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out. So far, the uh yeah, the feedback's been great, too. So, we're excited to be a board game company and kind of all
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sides of of the table. Well, I think if you have been in the hobby for a little while, I think your journey sounds very
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similar to quite a lot of ours too where you started really really passionately about it, kind of drifted off a little
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bit sort of for a few years and then kind of came back with another resurgence. I think that kind of means
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that you have gotten a real appreciation for what you like and I think that can only help I would guess from a from a
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publishing and designing point of view. You know exactly what gaming means to you and what you want it to feel like. I
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think Yeah. Yeah, I think so. cuz I think a lot of my design really just comes from
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like, "Oh, this game's not out there. I wish this game was out there." Like, "Well, then I'll make it be out there."
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Um, and I think that's really most of the games that I've put together. That's where they're coming from is just I see
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something I wish I could play and I can't play it, so I think I'll I'll play it. But you're right about the design or
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about the board game journey cuz I think that first time it was really the uh I think a lot of folks do this too where I
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was just ticking off all the top 100 BG games, right? I've definitely been there.
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And at the time that was a very different list that was like Thur and Taxis, Dominion. Um it was a lot of that
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stuff. Not to date myself too much, but it was a lot of that stuff. Uh and it mostly was fine, but I kind of hit my
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limit. I think THR and Taxis honestly which I now appreciate but at the time thought oh boy this is just cuz all
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board games are math dressed up like fun and taxis is barely dressed that is just
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it's really that that's math uh with a little bit of of uh of like fun coding
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on top of it. Now I really like it but at the time I thought this this this is maybe a bridge too far for me. Um, and
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then you kind of reset that and you really find where you feel at home. And it's not I don't think it's ever really
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that top 100. It's kind of some other weird pockets on that list that you are not on the list at all that that you end
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up finding that are kind of comfortable for you. Yeah, I think definitely that's kind of my journey. when you kind of get into
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it, you almost go on like an acquisition or maybe this is just me in an acquisition kind of I want to play this,
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I want to have this and this and this and then kind of after a little while you start finding your little I guess
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your little vibe and your little niche I guess. Um what you're really interested
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in and kind of more curating your experience rather than just like a Pokémon got to catch them all sort of
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approach. Yeah. Yeah. I know. At first you're like I need a tile placement game. I need a market manipulation game. I need a
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worker placement. Now I got to have a social deduction game. I need three party games for these different
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Yeah, you really need to fit every niche. And then you realize, I'm never open that social deduction game and I'm
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never going to play that market manipulation game again. But boy, do I ever play these worker placement games. Maybe that's where my
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interests lie. Yeah. So for our listeners who who can't see this, um Sean's sitting behind a
What are Shawn's favourite games right now?
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very nice collection of board games there. What do you think is your favorite game right now? Would you say
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what's been hitting your tables? Oh boy, that is such a tough question. Um, as he looks behind him to get in.
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Yeah, cuz I've usually got like four that bounce around in that spot which is Gaia Project, Ultimate Railroads,
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Anacrony, and a fourth one which suddenly Oh, Dune Imperium. Um, but just lately the only
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thing I want to play in the whole world is Western Legends. Every time someone wants to play a board game, I want to
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play Western Legends. And I do not think it is a perfect game like design-wise. I think there's a lot of weird kind of
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older things that are in there. But boy, just being a cowboy and getting to be a
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good guy or a bad guy and just doing cowboy stuff, robbing a train and robbing a bank, it is so much fun. It
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tells so many like fun little immersive stories. And I think that's what I found myself leaning towards lately is games
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that aren't storydriven, but at the end of it, you've got this thing that I always call that like
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paintball conversation that when you're done playing paintball, if you guys have ever played paintball, you at the end of
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it, you're like you're telling war stories, like you're really in it, right? Where you're like, "Oh yeah,
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remember this time?" And then when I was doing this and then that guy like got me in the back and when this other thing
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happened. Um, that's the sort of thing that Western Legends gives me. And I
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think that's kind of the games that I'm really leaning towards lately is the games that give you that where at the
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end of it you're like, oh yeah, remember this or oh, if I made this choice or remember this cool thing. I love when a
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game does that. So, did did you pick up cuz that was reprinted a couple of years back now, I think it was, wasn't it? Was it last
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year? Did you pick it up then or is it one that's been sat on the shelf for a little while or did you did you have it sat on the shelf a little while and then
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just bought the new edition anyway? I uh I actually bought someone else who bought a new edition. I bought their old
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edition and then tracked down some of the older uh expansions for it as well.
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So yeah, so I've got a my own new to me copy of the older version of the game.
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Yeah, that's similar to my kind of experience with Adrian. I tend to buy his games from him when he upgrades for the latest
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version. And I think he knows that. He'll just tell me, "Oh, Becky, this this game I'm playing, blah, blah, blah." And immediately you can see that,
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oh yeah, I'm kind of interested in this. And then just randomly he's buying a new version and his expendable now.
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I always tell you that I'm upgrading and that's why I would never do a
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but it works like a charm every time. Yeah, it does. Where he's just thinking I can bank this.
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I've got I can make money. It's normally cuz it's like well the first edition, you know, it's got a bit
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character to it cuz they refined it in the second edition. If there's any word to use to sell Becky a game, it's to it's got character or it's got a bit of
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like, you know, a bit of something like quirky about it. And suddenly Becky's like, "Oh, I'm all over it." So that's
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the sales technique I used to get rid of first editions. I'm I'm with you 100%. I would rather uh
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like I don't know. There's something more beautiful in the like slightly wrong version that's just not wrong, but
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that it's just it's just not as nice as it could be. like there's something nicer about it that this is like how it
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was originally meant to look and it has all its flaws and scars and I kind of like that too. Yeah, me too.
TURN 3 - How did Allies & Enemies begin and insights as an indie publisher
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So, um tell us a little bit more about uh how you're kind of embarking in this
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small publishing arena. How how has it been for you? Yeah, it's been a a heck of a learning
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curve. We I definitely came into it thinking I knew a lot more than I know
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because there is there is a lot lot lot to learn about economics and shipping and all sorts of
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stuff. Um, but I I I won't focus on that stuff too much cuz I don't think that that's it's not interesting to me. I
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don't think it's interesting to anyone else. But I think the where it was interesting for me really was just just
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design. Just learning so much more about design because I definitely came into
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that as well thinking probably that I knew a little bit more than I did for sure. and and I got into Last Week of
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Summer is a game um that has a lot of little bits of games in it. So, I started off designing this game that
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doesn't just have one core mechanic. It's got kind of six or seven little mini core mechanics that had to start as
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big mechanics and then get boiled right down so they could each get explained in, you know, 10 seconds each. So, that
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became simple enough, but like there's a lot more under the hood, I think, than
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than uh than you'd first think. So that was uh both a difficult process and I
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think a really useful one for me because it made me think about like why why do
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polyomino puzzles work and why do dice games work? What what's interesting about that to people and what's
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interesting about um pusher luck games cuz all of that's in there. So, I really had to think about each one and what's
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the math for each of those because like I said earlier, the board games are really math dressed up like fun. And I
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did not realize how true that was till I started making a game and was trying to
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put together um one of the early locations had a set collection thing.
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So, I needed there to be equal numbers of all these different cards with three different items on each card. And each
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of those items could be in a different kind of set. And I needed all those sets to be an equal amount. And I thought,
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"Oh my goodness, I wish I paid more attention in grade 11 math." Cuz this is algebra in a card.
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Yeah. Yeah. Exactly thing, isn't it? Yes. Because Noble was famous for being like,
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"This is maths where there's only the same symbol on one other card as this one. Like every card has the same one of
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the same symbol and only one." And I remember looking at the math of that and going, "No, who
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how did it come to who thought that level of math would become a party game?" So, you really Well, I I saw some kids playing it on
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the train yesterday, so it's still just as popular. And they were playing the Harry Potter version and it it upset me
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a little bit because I'm a huge Harry Potter fan. They didn't know what the characters were on the cards. They didn't know the Harry Potter. They
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said that guy, "Oh, it's a snake thing, isn't it?" I thought, "You don't even know Slytherin." Oh my. So, clearly, you
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don't need to understand the actual pictures you're using. It is pure math, isn't it? It's just pure Yeah.
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pure math. Yeah. But I really understand now why there's so many mathematicians
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in that are board game designers because there really are oodles of them out there, oodles of mathematicians, oodles
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of teachers. Um, and so you really do appreciate that a lot more when you're doing it and you're figuring out, oh,
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wait a sec. I actually really need to make these numbers work in all these different things so that the game's fun.
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Um, so that that was a big learning curve for me and just the how to get uh
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like the emotional experience that I wanted to get actually come across in
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the table cuz that was the biggest thing for me is that I really wanted especially with last week of summer
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there for the emotion the emotional attachment to your last week of summer to be more than just like this pasted on
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theme that was kind of a catchphrase that I could suck people into. I wanted people to play the game and at the end
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of the game kind of, you know, reminisce a little bit and be like, "Oh, yeah." Or to whilst they're playing the game,
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drive towards the stuff that they would actually do. I love it when someone's playing the game and they're like, they
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just go to the skate park and you can tell that that's what they would have done or they just go to the music store or whatever it is because that's the
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thing that they would have done in real life and that you can see them like attached to that and to attach a bit at
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least I hope to the mechanics of that as well. So trying to figure that out and
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have that emotional experience come through from like the math and the mechanics um has really been an
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interesting uh puzzle for me to put together. So say so did you did you have the idea
What was the genesis of Last Week of Summer
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of I want to make a game about my last week of summer or did you have right I've got this idea for a game that I
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want to be multifaceted and have lots of many different kind of moving parts and
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I want to think how best I can convey that. What was that kind of like a 50/50 thing or did you have which which kind
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of came first? Yeah, it came 100% from the theme first. So, the theme came out of uh I I had
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just watched every John Hughes movie back to back over the course of a week or a week and a half or whatever it was.
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Um, and I thought I want a movie that feels like this or I want a game that feels like this. So, in the earlier
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versions, there was a lot more like meat cutes and stuff in there that got lost.
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It never really quite fit, and it ended up that part ended up kind of falling off. Um, maybe it'll come back in an
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expansion. I don't know. But it had that, but really what I wanted to get is that feeling at like, you know, at the
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end of Breakfast Club of that like of of the air punch, like I wanted that sort of thing, that sort of '8s feeling. Um,
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so it came originally from that is I'd seen so many things that were 80s, but they felt like that kind of not really
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what the 80s felt like to me. Like they felt like that neon kind of fake version of the8s that didn't quite feel like
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actual '8s. And I wanted it to feel like actually being in the arcade or like
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that real I I don't know how to explain the feeling of the '8s, but as a kid in the '8s, it just felt
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potential. I think potential. Yeah. that like you know riding on your bike out to McDonald's to get like the
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chicken nuggets at the time which had just just come out and I remember being real excited about it but like that sort
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of thing like I wanted that that like kind of happy summer feeling that you only get when you're in high school or
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you're in school and summer's like freedom. Um I wanted that and so that's
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where that started from. But then the mechanics really came from I just I love games that have a lot of little moving
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parts and that have a lot of variation that you can mix and match. So I think at the time I was playing a lot of Merchants Cove, um Tidal Blades,
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um Anacrony. So there's a bunch of these games that have kind of modules that you
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can switch in and out and that really appealed to me. So I wanted to take that but not have it be quite so heavy as
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those games, especially Anacrony. So I wanted that but something that was a lot
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more kind of gateway weight um that pe but people could still have that experience. So so mechanically that's
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where it came from but it really started with how how do I make this like game that really feels like what I think the
How did you match the game types to the feeling you wanted to convey?
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80s was. And you talked there about you know wanting to make you know that people naturally quite often will resonate
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towards what they would be doing in their last week of summer. How did you match the game types up to the thematic
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sort of overlay? Cuz there's definitely each of those like mini games do feel like they belong to it, but I couldn't I
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couldn't tell you why when I was some of them I could but some of them I was like I can't tell you why this feels like this but it does. So what was your
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process for kind of matching those up? Right. Yeah. And those those have changed a lot since the start as well.
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So, some of those have been slightly with different things as it's gone, but so it's been kind of a mix of I
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definitely had a list of stuff that had to be in there. So, like I was going to have a skate park. I was going to have an arcade. That was like absolutely
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there was I wanted a video store and that probably was the hardest um path to get that to actually work. There were
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some very messy early versions of that. Uh but then it was I I almost had like
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two columns on the sheet, right? Like I had mechanics that I thought could fit
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this and I thought could be boiled down to the place that I wanted to be able to boil it down but still be interesting
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and then locations that I thought I really needed to have. And there were probably 20 or so on each of those
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lists. And as I went and as I tried different things, I figured out things that didn't work and things that did work. And I kind of realized a few of
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the places that people were like as I play tested it too, like where's the video store? Why isn't there a video
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store? And I was like, I'm working on it. I I know. Um, so these were kind of I think the six that both I held on to
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most that I needed to be in there and that I think people kind of that you
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just you think '8s and you think town and like I wanted I wanted to deliver the stuff that people expected to be in
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there. So hopefully these six kind of make the most sense to folks, but then I did really want the mechanics to feel
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like that thing. So, there's been things I wanted to be in there that ended up not quite making it just because I
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couldn't quite get the mechanics to work yet and maybe they're in an expansion or something. Fingers crossed. But yeah, so
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it was it was really it was a bit of both sides of that coin. So, you mentioned your play testers
How does an indie publisher get their playtest group?
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there a little bit. How how does a a you know, independent publisher like yourself kind of get play testers? Is it
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your friends? Do you ruthlessly bombard them constantly with games? Um, are you and your wife playing the games every
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single night? How does that sort of look? It's really a mix. Yeah, it's definitely my my friends have played it way too
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much. My wife has played it constantly. Oh boy, has she ever played it a lot. But, um, the lucky thing with being in
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London is there's such a terrific play test community here. It's amazing. you can play test. I can easily play test
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three, four nights a week um with the official play test groups, but there's enough other designers here who will
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just, you know, we just pop over to each other's houses and we have little impromptu play tests as well. So, so
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there's a really nice community of designers, but you do need a mix cuz designers give you a certain type of
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feedback and you know, real players like you're a Harry Potter fan, so I always
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say muggles um give you kind of the other kind of feedback, right? Um and both are really equally as important and
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so you really you need it to be in front of both groups. So designers help a lot lot lot especially in the early stages
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but as you're getting to the end um being able to go to conventions which thankfully there's a lot in the UK as
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well has been really helpful and that's even more where I've you know roped friends into playing it roped uh friends
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who don't play quite as many board games sometimes too into playing it to really bounce it off of them as well.
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So you mentioned the kind of good community that sort of small publishers have. What do you think other than that
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community feel? What else is the best part about being a small publisher?
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Uh, I think it's really in board games, it's this really interesting I feel like
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this interesting kind of new art form. Like I feel like it's this this I always enjoy these weird little communities
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that we all really feel like like we know a lot about and then you step just
22:49
a tiny bit outside of that community and you realize how you know normal people like most of the world has no idea
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not a clue even stuff that we think where we're like you know I check myself where I'm
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I'm thinking I'm not going to like I don't want to talk about Monopoly but I'll just talk about something that they'll definitely know about like I'll
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talk about size or wingspan or and they have no normal people have no idea what
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what I'm talking about like where our bar is is so different and so I love that. I love finding those weird little
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pockets like I used to do standup and I feel like that has a lot of that same sort of feel to it as well. Um where
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it's like I don't know like a way less cool punk music almost right it's like this weird little scene that just we
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have um and I like that. I like that it's it's just such a small but like
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supportive little scene. How about the unexpected challenges? You said there's so much more than you ever
What are the unexpected challenges you've faced?
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thought about designing a game. What's kind of been the biggest surprise for you? Yeah, I think um I think one of the
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early ones is when you realize, and I think every designer has this when they first do it, that the stuff that you're
23:56
making actually has to get produced. And then you realize, oh boy, I got to cut back these components. like when you
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really start to think with that more production brain than the development
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brain and the design brain. Um, and I think that's actually a really interesting challenge and it's made it
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more interesting for me to make games since that since I kind of had that um
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aha moment I guess like forced upon me. Um, I think that is a really helpful
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thing because it gives you like another parameter that's really helpful. But that was definitely I was going to say it it sounds
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sometimes having a little bit more of a kind of um confined area makes you more
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uh creative because you kind of realize you've got to make it fit within this. I remember Chris Priscott, the designer of
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Zuli, was saying he was so blown away by the different amount of types of card that you could
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choose when you're publishing site. You know, he he a regular person wouldn't think, oh
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actually, does it matter if it's shiny? Does it matter if it fits in this kind of box or or whatever? So, have you had
25:03
that same kind of Oh my goodness. Have I ever I can touch a card now and be like, "Oh, yeah. This
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is a 320 ivory core with a linen finish um with like no problem." Like it's
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Yeah, you definitely have that. And you just think, how many boxes do I want to fit in a carton? How much weight does
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this need to have? How many pieces are going to fit in that box then? So, what can I actually do? and like I want it to
25:27
have this certain price point, but I also want to offer, you know, a surprising amount for that price point.
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How am I able to do that? And so there's a there's a lot of logistics that go
25:39
into that for sure. But it it is a really it's it's like like with writing as well, right? It's always so much
25:45
easier. If you tell a kid just write a story, they're just going to sit there for an hour. If you tell them, "Write a
25:50
story about a dragon and it's a Tuesday and they're going to 7-Eleven," they have no problem.
25:56
So, you really need that. Nice. Um, you mentioned obviously as
26:02
well about the the sort of some of those design process challenges. And I suppose this goes on to to again about um
26:10
publishing challenges as well. A lot of people when you go when you ask for board game design advice or anything
26:15
like that, they'll say first thing they'll say is you're going to have to learn how to cut out some of the board
26:21
game designed sort of thing. You know, you'll want to put everything in. You'll fall in love with every mechanic. It'll be tough.
26:27
Obviously, the game, you know, the the last week of summer game is is lots of little mini games around a central
26:33
mechanic. Did that make it easier to cut things out or was that kind of your way of shoehorning in everything that you
26:39
wanted to get into the game or or sort of how did you find that whole experience? Yeah, I think it made it easier to cut
26:45
things out honestly because I had the advantage of I've got these little things that can kind of be treated
26:51
almost separately but fit within the core mechanic. The core mechanic being the um the card uh the card selection
27:00
and um as you're planning out your turn in the game. So, just to really quickly explain the game because it's probably
An overview of "Last Week of Summer"
27:06
helpful before I talk about all this stuff. Um, around it a bit. Yeah. Yeah. So, what the game is is it's 1986,
27:12
just finished high school. You got one more week left of summer before you got to go be a grown-up. So, in that week,
27:17
you're trying to squeeze in as much fun as you possibly can. And in order to do that, you've got a hand of cards. They
27:23
each go to different locations. So, each game you use usually four locations. Um, five if you got enough players for it.
27:30
And so, those cards are going to have each location. They've got a hanging out and a work card. And you're going to
27:35
play three of those each day in AM, noon, and PM. And that's the places that you're going to go to. Um, and everyone
27:41
does this at the same time. And then you go to those places and you do little mini games. So there's like a video store that's in Manala, an arcade that's
27:49
a dice rolling game. There's a fast food that's a push or luck game where you can keep eating food, but if it's gross, you
27:55
throw up and you like lose. Um, there's a a skate park that's like a polyomino
28:00
puzzle. And there's uh Oh, there's also a record store that's like a market manipulation. So, as albums get cool,
28:08
they move up um this like this track, but if they get too cool, they're not cool anymore and they drop back down to
28:13
the bottom. And there's also um you're spray painting the back of a a convenience store like hooligans, and
28:19
that's kind of area control. So you got all these little mini games kind of around this core thing of playing out
28:26
these cards. And then also when you go to places, your action actually changes
28:32
depending on if you're with other people or not because your friends can kind of distract you. Same thing with when
28:38
you're working. If you don't have any customers, you get to goof off and kind of do the thing. So if you're at the
28:44
movie store, you just watch a movie cuz no one showed up that day, but you make less money. So, there's a little bit of
28:50
deciding where everyone else goes, but there's also these cool kids that are each place, and you want to be friends
28:56
with the cool kids because they're the coolest kids in town. So, you know, everyone knows their schedule at the start of the day, and you'll move up
29:02
this cool kid track, and that gets you cassettes. And then the whole thing is based on getting these cassettes, which
29:09
is getting these goals at each different location, being friends with a cool kid,
29:14
um going to parties each day. one of the locations is kind of like the star location. So, whoever is doing best
29:20
there at the end of that day gets to invited to the special party as well. And so, all these things let you put
29:25
cassettes out on the board and cassettes equal memories because for me, all my memories are tied to music in the '8s.
29:32
So, all your cassettes equal your cool memories of the summer and then that's like your mixtape of the summer. So, that's kind of how the game sets out.
29:38
But as you can imagine, getting to that six locations like you were asking, um, there was a lot of locations and there
29:45
was a lot cut late as well. But because of how the mechanics kind of work, it
29:51
wasn't too hard to pull those out and plug other ones in. And it was tough cuz
29:57
there was one I loved and I really wanted it to work um based around roller
30:03
skating uh and roller derby cuz I'm just a nuts fan of roller derby and I really
30:08
wanted roller derby to be in there. Uh but it just it just didn't quite work
30:13
how I wanted it to work. So maybe some point in the future. Uh but if people have play tested it, there's probably
30:20
oodles of folks out there who have played various versions of this roller derby. um location that used to exist
30:26
and we'll be like, "Oh, what happened to that?" I hope they're like, "Well, it didn't quite work." So, we picked the right ones, but it didn't quite work.
30:33
And so, that was one that was like a I hate to cut this, but I've got to cut it cuz I I liked it artistically, too.
30:40
Like, I I thought it looked really cool. But, yeah. So, yeah, that was a very long way of answering your question, but
30:47
it did make it a little bit easier to be able to chop out some of those things. And I can always
30:53
tell myself, as I have already a couple times here in this conversation, maybe it's part of an expansion, right?
30:58
Because it's a very expandable game. So hopefully folks like it enough and then I can, you know, continue to work on
31:05
those and tweak those and get those to the place where I'm comfortable with them and then those become part of the
31:10
game in the future. I was waiting for you to say that it'll become an expansion because we we've heard that a few times in various like just
31:16
interviews either on the podcast or off where people are like so it kind of made it into my like expansion folder where I
31:23
would like see which bits worked and which bits didn't once it hit retail and then start adding them to expansions and
31:28
all that lot. So when you were sort of saying oh it'll I'll tell myself it will just go into an expansion and make it
31:33
easier to cut now and then we'll see how it goes. I was kind of like, is he going to say that? Because that that would be
31:39
the way I would treat it. As you say, you've developed a game that I think is um very like easy to put expansions in.
31:47
I don't know if easy is quite the right word, but it's certainly easy to expand on by adding these locations. And I
31:52
would I know personally I'd probably tell myself with every mechanic that didn't work, it's fine. You'll come back later in an expansion, like put it in
31:59
the box sort of thing. Yeah. Yeah, you really do. Yeah. I used to uh I used to do a lot of improv. Um,
32:05
and we would always say if you had a scene idea that didn't quite work, um, it's all right. Improv Jesus is enjoying
32:12
it in improv heaven. And so I kind of think that with these board game expansions,
32:18
I think because the I haven't been lucky enough to try. I didn't get a chance to play it at the um at the UK GE, but um
32:25
it the thing that looks so appealing about it is its replayability because you can kind of mix and match what you
32:30
have and and what you kind of choose to prioritize, I guess. And for me, that's a really important part of a game. As
32:37
much a part of what's the experience like, but can I can I change this up? Can I a bit like when you're reading a
32:44
novel, you're kind of thinking to yourself, what's going to happen with this? What, you know, completely making this kind of crazy stories in your mind
32:49
about characters that are not even real. I like the fact that in a board game, you can kind of if you can change that
32:55
experience up a little bit. I think that's a really appealing a really appealing part of it. Yeah, that was definitely a big thing for me because
33:02
when I was putting it together too, I really wanted it to be able to fit for this kind of gateway, maybe gateway plus
33:09
audience. So, I'm really kind of gunning for that like wingspanish level audience. Um, and with that audience,
33:16
there's just a lot of variability cuz I think a lot of new gamers or newish gamers who are kind of really getting
33:22
into hobby games really still like there to be dice. they still really like there to be that little bit of randomness. Um,
33:29
but other gamers who have been playing a little bit more or maybe not even playing cuz I think it kind of es and
33:35
flows, right? I think I started off I really wanted that randomness and then I was like, "Oh, no, no, no." Like poo
33:40
pooed that. Oh, no. It all open information and like as German as I can get it. And then I think in recent years
33:47
I kind of have fallen back the other way where I'm like, you know what, a good game of Strike is just like can't be
33:52
beat. It's really fun. can't stop is a tremendous game and like some dice are
33:58
just fine. Some dice sometimes are terrific and but I wanted to be able to reach kind of both sides of that as
34:04
well. And you know some days you want to be able to have that randomness and some days you want to be able to mess with
34:09
people a bit more. Some days you wanted to be a bit more thinky. So I wanted people to be able to take those in and
34:15
out and have those different experiences for their different friends as well. So, if you got friends coming over who you
34:21
know like a meaner game, then you play with the Q Mart and the record store. If
34:26
you've got friends coming over and they do not like a mean game, you take those out and you put in put in the random
34:32
ones which are a little bit more friendly to newer gamers. Yeah, that sounds perfect for the kind
34:37
of stuff I like. So, my husband is a very heavy strategy type of a gamer. Um,
34:43
doesn't really like the kind of random randomness of dice games. yet I'm trying to sort of lure some of my other friends
34:50
in. So, so for them, I love the idea that I can play the same game and I can
34:55
have a really good awareness of how it works because that's what you need when you're teaching someone, right? But I can put the kind of I like how you sort
35:01
of said the kinder, the less mean kind of things into it. When that suddenly clicks with people, you can ramp up that
35:08
sort of the depth of the game, I guess. And I think that's that sounds like a really great selling point of of of um Last
35:15
Week Summer. Yeah, that was really one of the things that I wanted in there. And it it never it's never going to be
35:20
like heavy heavy. I certainly don't want to mislead folks, but it definitely can have a little more depth to it. I think
35:26
the record store um Topps Records it's called. I should use its full name. Um but Topps Records has is definitely the
35:34
most like that because it's a mix of set collection and market manipulation. And I think market manipulation is a is a
35:41
mechanic that is a little trickier for newer gamers. And so that's one that I have like maybe don't use this in your
35:47
first game. So learn this other stuff and then when you're learning that it doesn't feel like so much overhead to to
35:53
be able to pick up that stuff. And then I my hope with it is that it helps kind
35:58
of ease folks into some other great games too that maybe then they're like, "Oh, cool. Polyominos. I know this from
36:05
this. Now I feel more comfortable playing this other very cool game and market manipulation. Now I know this from this. Now I can go play Furnace and
36:12
you know which is a phenomenal game like so uh my hope is that it it can lead you
Was the modular nature of the game designed from the start?
36:18
into other stuff and I think I can see like Shackleton base behind you. I'm pretty sure that's what I can see behind you. Obviously
36:24
that's um yeah obviously that's kind of a similar thing where you can kind of choose the
36:30
type of game you have and we're noticing talked about this a couple of times on the podcast. you're kind of noticing a sway towards that modularity of a sort
36:37
of here's the base, but you kind of pick what kind of game you want in with that. Was that like um was that a deliberate
36:44
choice on your part to go that way or or sort of and sort of cuz I say it's a bit in trend at the moment. Was it something you saw and thought perfect this like
36:51
works for me or was it just sort of happen stance that you you sort of got this at the same time as some of the
36:56
other publishers are? Yeah. Well, it's bringing out similar I've been working on it for two three years. So, Shackleton Base definitely
37:01
was not a uh yeah, an influence, but it's a game I really like and I think it was just really it's
37:07
just something I like. Like, I just enjoy that in a game. I I get bored of stuff easy, so I love when things can be
37:15
mix and matched like that. Like, even with video games, I'm not the sort of person who can sit and play a like 200
37:21
hour RPG kind of game. I lean into stuff like Overwatch where you're a different
37:26
character's got a really different feel every single game and only takes me 15 minutes. Like that's just kind of my
37:32
personality. So I think that's just me putting what I like into a game. Like
37:38
I'm just kind of trying to make a game I'd want to play and I like when I can do that. I like when there's just different paths I can
37:46
go down in a game each time. That's that's fair. That sounds sounds kind of like me as well. Certainly for
37:51
video games sometimes with board games. I do like mine sort of I like mine German as you put it. Um, but
37:56
as as do I. I've got a lot of very beige games behind me and uh a lot more where
38:01
you can't see them too. So I I I definitely do lean that way as well. But yeah, for video games I'm more of a
38:08
sort of instant reward. Like if I can't get into it within sort of 20 minutes, it's probably not getting turned back on
38:14
after the first play sort of thing. So I can appreciate that. Also, so you know,
An overview of "Shakespeare: The Card Game"
38:20
we stopped by and I managed to get a demo game of that in and we saw the Shakespeare the card game um that you're
38:25
showing off as well. So, do you want to give that a little bit of time in the light as it were to sort of talk about that? Yeah, I'd love to. Yeah, I'm really
38:32
excited about that game. So, Shakespeare the card game is a well, it's a card game. It's about Shakespeare, but uh the
38:38
big hook to it is really that you you can win one of three ways. You can win by tragedy, history, or comedy. That's
38:45
Shakespeare's three types of plays. And so you've got a whole bunch of cards and they all are really based on, you know,
38:52
Shakespeare's different characters. And I like this idea of like a shared like an MCU of Shakespeare cuz I'm just I'm a
38:59
Shakespeare nut. Um, so I wanted to, you know, I just needed something to get
39:04
that out of me as well. It's like I'm a John Hughes nut. I'm a Shakespeare nut. So I wanted there to be this to really
39:10
appeal to Shakespeare fans. But so it's history, comedy, and tragedy. So, with history, you've got all these cards that
39:15
are kind of taken over different countries. If ever you control four different countries, you win the game. That's kind of a pushpull tugofwar
39:22
thing. Oh, and this is a two-player specific card game I should mention as well. The tragedy cards all have a death
39:29
trigger. So, they all have different ways that that they'll die. So, like Iago dies if the other um person has uh
39:36
three different couples who are in love, cuz that's too much love for Iago, so he just calls it quits. uh Athell. If
39:42
you've got two mismatch lovers in your hand, you have to discard them and kill Athell, which is I know kind of dark.
39:48
It's kind of kind of sad. Um but there are there's everyone's got Romeo and Juliet die if they're in your hand
39:55
together. Julius Caesar dies if you've got too much power in one country. If you have three cards in one country
40:00
because that's the triumpvirant that's killing Julia Julius Caesar. So they all have these different little death
40:06
triggers. Um and if ever you kill four cards, you win the game. So, if you take over four lands or you kill four cards,
40:12
you win the game. And then the other way is if you marry four couples. So, there's all a whole bunch of different
40:18
couples from all the different plays and you're just trying to pair those up. But what helps you do that is the fourth type of card, which are these chaos
40:24
cards. And that's stuff like Bottom and Puck and the witches from McBth um and
40:30
uh uh Jacques and all sorts of folks from all sorts of different plays. And they're they're just causing trouble for
40:36
everything else. So, they're like Puck can make two different lovers join
40:42
together whether or not they want to. Um, Bottom can marry anybody by kind of
40:47
tricking them. Titania can fix those pairings if they've been mixed up too much. Um, so there's all of that sort of
40:55
stuff in there and you're just racing to one of those three win conditions. Really quick little game. It's like 15ish minutes uh to play. And yeah, it
41:03
seemed I think I met every single English teacher who was at UKG. It really really has an audience. But I did
41:11
find some folks who aren't big Shakespeare fans and still got a lot out of it due still really did enjoy the
41:17
game. But I think if you're into Shakespeare, um you're going to enjoy, you know, how thematic the powers are
41:23
and the little quotes on the bottom and all that stuff. So you say that you kind of you're a big Shakespeare nut and
41:29
that's what sort of made you want to design this game. Is that because you could see how the kind of complexity of
41:35
his work works well with the mechanics that you had or did you just think I'm going to design something that kind of really mixes Shakespeare up?
41:42
I just kind of got in my head one day, oh wouldn't it be cool if there was a Shakespeare game that had three endgame
41:48
triggers that were comedy, history, or tragedy. And so I just started from that. And then from that kind of the
41:55
game, you know, fell in, well, it didn't fall into place. It went through a bunch of iterations. Um, the first of which
42:01
had a board and all sorts of stuff. And then it got kind of paired down and paired down and paired down to its
42:06
heart. And I think it works well now. But and I also liked the idea of this shared universe of Shakespeare
42:13
characters of like them all being able to kind of smush together um of Timone
42:18
of Athens running into Beatatrice and Benedict. I just really like that idea. So, so I thought, well, I'll make I'll
42:25
make that happen. I find it really interesting. This kind of um sort of touches on last week of summer as well and we mentioned
42:30
Shackleton base. I I love how clearly there's this kind of almost shared creative idea that must kind of be
42:37
rippling through publishers minds cuz like you mentioned your games have been 2, three years in the making. So this is
42:43
not that you've been influenced by these guys, but similar to Lost Ruins of Arnac and June Imperium, they share a lot of
42:49
the same kind of DNA, but they were obviously being thought of around about the same time. So I just find that
42:56
really interesting that there's obviously some kind of zeitgeist that happens between publishers that isn't
43:01
really spoken about, but clearly there's some kind of shared idea. And I I think the idea that that's really interesting
43:08
to me. Yeah, I haven't seen that as much with the Shakespeare game. I don't know if there are other Shakespeare games coming out there. I think there always are.
43:14
He's uh he's he's been been a pretty big deal for uh quite a long time, but yeah,
43:19
I've definitely seen that with the 80s games. And it is interesting like you mentioned, you see that a lot with movies as well, right? Like you saw that
43:25
with Dante's Peak and Volcano that one year. What a weird thing that we had two
43:31
urban volcano movies. Um, or you saw it with Deep Impact in Armageddon or you
43:36
saw it like it seems to happen that there must be some trigger two years earlier that
43:42
Yeah. Yeah. I don't know whoever's the the other folks making the 80s game maybe. Also,
43:47
maybe I don't know why we started watching every John Hughes movie. Maybe there was something on and it triggered
43:54
a bunch of folks to do that and then it made a bunch of folks go, you know what, there needs to be an 80s game. Uh, yeah,
44:00
it might have been that. I don't know. Because when you're talking about the kind of different mechanics and ways you
44:05
can win in the Shakespeare game, it it kind of immediately made me think of Lord of the Ring Jewel for Middle Earth.
44:10
So you're playing a a card game that is understandable. Things mix with things,
44:16
but there are completely different ways in order to get the win. Um, and they're
44:21
not really linked together, but it's like a big meta game overall. So yeah, it's just I find it really interesting
44:26
that there's obviously something in the water that tells people, I want to make something like this. Yeah. And when I saw that come out,
44:32
honestly, I was like, "Oh, no." Oh. Um, and then when I saw how they did their wing conditions, I thought, "Peofth,
44:39
these are these are different. That's great. I'm very happy. None of these are are the same." But obviously, Seven
44:44
Wonders has been doing the three different wing conditions forever and ever and ever. And um yeah, and it's it's not the only
44:51
points before, wasn't it? So that was Yeah. So what they've done is they've turned it into actual win conditions, haven't they? And then Yeah. As you say,
44:57
that's sort of Yeah. So I'm I'm sure that was in there. A rising tide fixes everything, right?
45:03
Like so I don't think it's lost lost runes of arach hasn't sort of lost out to the fact that June Imperium is kind
45:10
of similar. I mean my I know which side my bread's bud for lost runes of varnac for me every time. Yeah,
45:17
I I love different opinions about this. Yeah, I I get both. Both are terrific for me.
45:22
Yeah, fair enough. But I think that neither of them kind of lose out to the fact that the other one is sort of similar. So, I think if
45:29
people like that mechanic, they're definitely prepared to try both things. So, I I think that's really good. Yeah. Well, and I I'm sure I'm not
45:36
denting uh Lord of the Rings Seven Wonders uh in any way whatsoever. Uh and
45:43
it's it's a terrific game, too. So, um yeah, I I do think like when you first
45:49
hear the three wing conditions, you definitely and you're certainly not the first one to say, "Oh, yeah, that
45:54
certainly sounds similar." But I think once you play it, uh because the how you get the cards, how you play the cards,
46:00
everything else is is so so different. Uh my hope is that there's certainly a
46:05
lot of room in people's uh collection for both of those as well because yeah, I think I think you are going to have
46:11
quite a different experience um than you are with with Seven Wonders. But it's a
46:16
great game. Again, it's a it's a smallish card game, isn't it? It's um Shakespeare the card
46:22
game. So, in terms of Calax Cubage, it's not going to um it's not going to take
46:27
up too much space in that regard, is it? No. All All it is is a deck of 50. Well,
46:32
right now we're finalizing it, but let's say 56 today. Um 56 cards.
46:38
Nice. So, yeah. So, that that could certainly fit in most people's collections, I think. For your
46:44
sort of saying MCU, I was thinking Kingdom Hearts of that sort of let's amalgamate all the worlds together. Um,
46:52
and just sort of, you know, even if it's not your favorite play or something like that, the fact that the character turns
46:58
up and interacts in some way with another from another play, you might sort of get a kick out of that. You
47:03
know, I've always loved that. I loved it in League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Um, not so much the movie, but the comic
47:09
books is one of my favorite examples of that. Yeah, the movie. Uh, yeah, there's a
47:16
reason Sean Connory retired right after. But uh but the comic books terrific.
What makes up Shawn's last week of summer?
47:22
Nice. So I think this this actually leads us on quite nicely to um while we're talking about sort of potential
47:27
cheesy stuff is if we think about last week of summer, what makes up Sean's last week of summer? So out of your out
47:35
of your current six locations, which is the one you're visiting? I'm guessing
47:40
you're not going to say it's the graffiti spot. Yeah. No, I'm not not that much of a
47:45
hooligan, especially in Canada. It's too cold the graffiti in Canada. Who would even see it? You just drive by. Um, no,
47:52
it's the mu the music store. I was I was in Oh, boy. Like every day we would
47:58
visit. We had a little circle of I think three different uh secondhand music
48:04
shops that we go to in Calgary, which is where I grew up. So, I grew up in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. Uh the mean
48:10
streets, just as mean as you'd think. Uh but
48:15
yeah, so we'd go to these different record shops and we would do that every weekend. We would go buy and we would
48:20
come home with a bundle of albums and so I just had the shelves of board games
48:26
now used to be shelves of CDs. Um so yeah, it would it would have definitely been been the music stop. Also video
48:33
store though. Uh I remember doing so many of those seven days for $7, seven
48:39
movies. Um they had that at this little Wow, that sounds like a good deal. It was great. Yeah, this little no-name
48:45
video store and in British pounds that's like 250. Um, but this little no-name video store that was near me had this
48:52
deal and so I go there and rent movies uh every couple weeks and it was terrific. So, yeah, I did that a lot,
48:59
too. I got to admit, I I had a skateboard. I skated on it a little bit, but I never got past being able to like
49:06
the fanciest trick I could do is maybe ollie a curb. And other than that, I could like the best I could do was just
49:13
the stand and don't fall down. And that was rare. So, I didn't even master that.
49:18
Yeah. Mine was um mine was roller hockey. So, you're talking about roller derby. And I was like, okay, that's that's roller skates
49:25
rather than roller blades, but I played quite a bit of roller hockey. And then I recently had I recently had enough of m
49:31
midlife crisis that I was like, I'll try skateboarding. And I just about got the board off the ground a few times and
49:36
then was like, "Man, this is hard work in your your late 30s, early 40s trying to Yeah, I've really been thinking about
49:43
buying a skateboard." And my wife is like, "You you will die. You can't do it." Um, but I've really been thinking
49:49
about it for sure. And I love to hear that you played hockey. Um, roller hockey, but that's close. That's close
49:55
to proper hockey. I I tried ice hockey and it's a complete like here in England a it's probably not
50:02
the same level. Yeah, it was it was really a diff I thought, oh, I can do
50:08
roller hockey. I can clearly ice hockey. It's going to be roughly the same. It is not even close.
50:14
Such a different sport. Yeah. If we really did my last week of summer, it would be mostly hockey.
50:19
That's all I did at that time in my life. I think it was um we were pretty much we were either playing playing on
50:25
the ice, which we just call hockey. I think this is the only country that calls it ice hockey. Um but we just call
50:31
it hockey. Uh and so yeah, I was on the ice all the time or or playing roller
50:36
hockey when we couldn't get on the ice or playing in shoes, playing street hockey, um where you yell car all the
50:42
time and have to move the nets because you play on the literal street. Um yeah,
50:47
we did that all the time, too. So that that was an awful lot in my summer. But but for the for the locations, it was
50:53
definitely the record store I was at all the time and uh in the video store I was at quite a bit. So I guess the more
50:58
indoor locations. So I I was thinking about this. So like my last week of summer would have been 200 something 2002 20
51:07
2003. So like it's not an 80s last week of summer for me. So I was like trying
51:12
to think through like oh what was my most rented stuff and all that and I was thinking by that point we were just about starting downloads I think. So
51:18
like so it wouldn't have been rent like I cleared out my local Blockbuster when that closed down. I remember that much.
51:25
What would be your sort of repeat picks in your last week of summer for those for for the videos and the the movies?
51:31
So mine I was lucky cuz my last week was 1994 would have been my last year. Um
51:37
which is the greatest year of all time for music and for movies and I don't even think it's close. Um
51:45
Cis going in. I wonder a lot of I bet a lot of folks think that but it really is. So it was uh Pulp Fiction would have
51:52
been the big movie that year. Um and we were like obsessed with it. One of my friends drama we got to do an end of
52:00
year play based on whatever you know we could make a play out of anything we
52:05
felt like. And one of my friends did Pulp Fiction and I got to play um Brent the kid who gets shot in the chair with
52:12
a big kahuna burger. Yeah. uh because he keeps saying what too much.
52:17
I that was my my big role. Uh so Pulp Fiction would have been the movie that
52:22
we we were just watching over and over. Um there was other movies though like I got really into kung fu movies I think
52:28
that year. So I was watching a lot of um Sunny Chiba movies uh Street Fighter and
52:35
Son of Street Fighter and Sister Street Fighter. Okay. Uh, and I think that actually came from Teratino, too, because those are
52:42
all mentioned in True Romance. Um, as well,
52:48
yeah, so it would have been that stuff. Um, also the movie Tombstone. I was big on a big fan of that. The and Young
52:54
Guns. Uh, those are both those like there's a little resurgence of cool westerns with like these cool young
53:00
actors. Uh, so those would have been some of the movies. Um, and then for uh
53:06
for music it was uh De La Soul, uh 9-in
53:11
Nails, Ani Def Franco, um Tori Amos, uh Beck,
53:18
Beasty Boys. It was pretty cool. There was some amazing music. That's a pretty good lineup. That is a
53:23
pretty good lineup. Yeah, Pixies. Oh, Pixies were a smidge before that maybe um was their last one,
53:29
but uh Sonic Youth was going hot at that time. It was it was a pretty rad time to
53:35
be into music. So all that stuff I still listen to constantly too, I think. Yeah. Again, slightly different years,
53:42
but definitely sort of I was thinking like Lincoln Park was a big part of my
53:48
sort of sort of college and sick form years and all that kind of stuff. And and I just think to myself, I listen to so much of
53:54
that still. Like as much as I sort of listen to stuff I listen since then, if I'm really sort of really feeling in the
54:01
mood for it, I still go back and revisit let's say like 9in Nails and him and all that kind of stuff and and then like
54:07
Lincoln Park and AFI and all that kind of stuff were all kind of in that sort of time period and
54:14
sort of stuff I would listen to again. So yes, there's some great choices in there. Well, I I feel like that's that
54:20
is a bit of the draw of that idea of your last week of summer because I think that kind of becomes this little like
54:25
time capsule that gets locked in your mind and so many folks I know the music that was that year becomes like just so
54:33
like the first CD I bought cuz I was buying cassettes up before that but the first CD I ever bought was a Aonomous
54:41
and it's still one of my favorite albums of all time. It's it's it it's a kind of a cheesy favorite album cuz it's um
54:47
actually a best of like their first five albums, but um I just I love and so that
54:52
album or like The Cure had an amazing album that year, too. Um there's just so
54:57
much so much rad punk stuff that was happening at that time, too. The Descendants. Um so there's just so much
55:03
stuff. The Descendants were a bit before that, but they still had some some cool stuff. And I think also you're
55:09
discovering stuff at the wrong year, too, right? like you're like, "Oh yeah, this band like all of a sudden I feel
55:15
like that's the year I learned about Velvet Underground." Um, and I learned about uh Joy Division and yeah, so I I
55:22
think I feel like those happened that year, even though I'm about 15 years too late on those. Uh, so there's all that,
55:29
too. But it's just whatever your life was, it's that little time capsule, and I feel like you hold on to that still.
55:34
What happened in that last year of high school? And I think that's one really great thing about your game. It is going to
55:41
spark those kind of conversations. Even if you have for that that year for you
55:46
was different to your neighbors year, it's going to spark those really raw,
55:53
oh, this was when I was learning to be an adult or or those that that music is going to spark so many
56:00
different memories and and it's a really lovely nostalgic feeling, I think. Yeah, I'm hoping folks get that from it.
56:06
And I definitely see people um have those little moments, too. And I love that when people are like, "Oh, yeah, I
56:11
should get another skateboard." And I think, "Oh, no. I just I just caused another injury."
56:17
Well, I work in operating theaters, so please don't please don't encourage anybody to be to be skateboarding or
56:23
doing crazy stuff over the weekend. So, I think I think that's it for our sort of main bit. So, do you want to
56:29
plug away at all of your kind of what's coming up and when things are coming out and and what to look for from Allies or
56:36
Enemies? Yeah. So, uh so you can find us on our channel. So, we're Allies or Enemies at YouTube. Um we also have an Instagram. I
56:43
don't use it as much, but uh you can definitely find us on YouTube. I believe we also have a Discord, but that I use
56:50
far less than the Instagram, but please go on there. Maybe you can make it come to life. Uh but you can find us all
56:56
enemies all over the internet. Uh, also last week of summer, please do look for that. The Kickstarter preview page is up
57:02
right now. Our intention is to release it u mid August or late August. So that
57:07
we actually want the Kickstarter to be running through the last week of summer. We thought that would be fun. So we're
57:13
going to have that um running very soon. So please go on that Kickstarter preview page if you're interested and you know
57:19
click on that so you get notified once we go live. Uh and then Shakespeare the card game also please do keep your eyes
57:25
out for that. We've got a website as well, allies enemies.com, and we're going to have information on that.
57:30
There's a mailing list you can sign up to about that. But that one we're getting pretty far on right now. I'm
57:35
working with a terrific artist, um, Kevin Newman, who's also a board game designer here in London. I almost said
57:42
Calgary. I forgot now. We're being so nostalgic. Um, and uh, yeah, so it's
57:47
been really fun working with him on this game as well. So, uh, we're excited to get that out. And that's I'm not sure
57:53
how we're releasing that as well. that may end up going straight to retail that may end up going through GameFound. I
57:58
don't know. So, follow us on there. Follow our mailing list. Thankfully, with a little card game, you got a lot
58:04
more flexibility on how you're going to release it because obviously it's a lot cheaper to produce. So, um we're
58:10
figuring that out. That's a weird thing to say in a plug. But anyway, we're also going to be releasing Shakespeare the
58:15
card game soon. So, if you're interested in that, uh please follow that as well. Nice. Sounds solid.
58:21
Thanks so much for talking to us, Sean. It's been really lovely having a little nostalgic walk back through my last week
58:26
of summer and making me think of all the kind of music that I listen to, which I'm too embarrassed to even say the name
58:32
of some of the bands. Oh, some some some of the bands that I self-edited there. I I I should really
58:37
have that list on there. I should really just have all the ones that I went, "Oh, do I want to say that?"
58:43
I think a lot of mine have been cancelled now. I don't think I can I don't think I can. Okay. No, mine haven't. There's some Oh,
58:49
you one I forgot. Boys to men. We were wearing cardigans like crazy at that
58:55
time cuz of Boys to Men. They were amazing. I stand by that one though.
59:01
[Music]
59:07
Well, thank you very much Sean for having you on the show. It's been um it's been fantastic sort of reminiscing and talking to you about your games. So,
59:12
for all of um Sean's goodies, um please look at his website, Instagram, um the
59:18
Kickstarter that will hopefully be coming live soon and um engage with all his stuff and it looks fantastic.
59:24
And as always, please do that for us as well. So, please give us a like, please share, subscribe, all the usual bits and
59:30
pieces for who's turns it anyway podcast. Um and yeah, keep an eye out for all of Sea's bits and pieces. Be
59:36
fantastic. He's been it's been great to have him on um reminiscing and uh talking about small publishing as well.
59:42
So, thank you very much. Yeah, thanks Sean. Until the next time, whose turn is it anyway?