JP: 0:32

Welcome to The whose Turn Is It anyway your board gaming podcast where we talk about games and occasionally we speak to game designers today is an expansion pack episode where we speak to Jack Neville from split stone games to talk all about his upcoming game Mycellia. In this episode, I'm joined by Kerley and we're gonna jump over and meet Jack See you in a bit so we're here and join with Kerley. From the podcast team. And more importantly, not as in Kerleys not important because he's absolutely important. But more importantly, sorry, Kerley. We've got Jack Neville from split stone games. Welcome to the show, Jack. Hello. Hello. It's great to have you on the show. Thanks for having me.

Kerley: 1:21

And I was gonna say pleasure to be here but I think

JP: 1:26

well, we clearly have got a nice relationship aren't we mate? where I think we just take the mick out of each other quite a lot. Especially when we're gaming. I mean, Jack. Jack's had the pleasure of witnessing me and Kerley gaming because we all had a game of of his of his new game, which we'll talk about very soon. And I'll maybe leave that for the later part of the episode. But yeah, welcome to the show. Jack. Really good to have you on. And it was really great to meet you at the UK games Expo this year, which feels like a distant memory. It honestly feels like last year already. Even though what is it three months? Or three months ago? Yeah. Right? Yeah, doesn't the year fly by? And kind of what we like to do with all of our guests is you like to ask you a few questions and learn about Jack the gamer. And the first one we always ask is What's your favourite game of all time? What's the one that's rises to the top and stays at the top?

Jack Neville: 2:25

I would say inis

JP: 2:27

ah

Jack Neville: 2:30

well firstly because the artwork is just rad with all the you know psychedelic durids it's great and I think it's one of those games I don't think I've ever played a board game it's made my like heart beat fast when you think you're gonna win you're like oh god I'm so close don't let anyone else know. And and the epic tale cards were just I just love them they just say Yeah, great. Yeah, I'm so excited to get one I'd say Inis

JP: 3:03

is probably my my top one nice yeah that's a that's a yeah we've had a few plays of Inis and like dudes on a map games for me on on like my strongest like in terms of what I enjoy but I did enjoy the kind of unique drafting in that game and just getting the that right the right cards in the hand at the right time to sequence what you need to do. But yeah, that whole tension is there isn't it right? I want to move people in there. You do this and then I can't remember half the cards but there's that one that puts like a festival or something and then you can't fight Yeah.

Jack Neville: 3:39

The guy's card which just like poo poos your last card, which is always very annoying but obviously swearing

JP: 3:50

now good choice good choice

Kerley: 3:52

area control one of your favourite game types then jack up interest because there are elements of that in Mycellia I would say yeah,

Jack Neville: 3:59

I mean, not necessarily. I don't really have a specific kind of type of game that I can gravitate towards it's just yeah, there's just there's elements which are like within each but area control I mean, think about area control think about risk which I do like a bit but it gets a very long winded and what I found there is a like have you played rising sun?

Kerley: 4:29

No, I haven't really.

Jack Neville: 4:30

That's really good. It's called Rising Sun?

JP: 4:34

Yeah, it's the evolution of Blood Rage isn't this kind of yeah

Jack Neville: 4:39

but yeah, I think it's I prefer as blood rage Yeah, rising sounds too good air control thing but I'm I would put myself into a hole and say I like this type of game because I like more. Really?

JP: 4:52

Yeah. Nice. So what games have you been kind of playing recently that you're you enjoying that you want to share with us?

Jack Neville: 4:59

Well, it turns out making a board game means you have no time to play board games. Which is good. Yeah. A one have been playing recently is furnace which actually UKGE Yeah, I Yeah, I think I was just taken by the front cover just the man on top patterns like industry. Yes, yeah.

JP: 5:22

1800s revolution.

Jack Neville: 5:26

So I don't actually know much about the game at all. But after playing it, I really like it and it's quite a quick one. Me and my partner have been playing it so it's worked well for two players so yeah, yeah, that's what I've been playing most and still Mycelia obviously,

JP: 5:41

obviously. Yeah

Jack Neville: 5:45

but yeah, I honestly haven't played many board games just terrible.

JP: 5:51

No it's not terrible but you've been busy busy correct creating one for first people like us to enjoy but now go back to the furnace is like furnace was a game that really surprised me I played grid Con last year, which is Paul Grogan gaming rules convention based in southwest which is literally on our doorstep and yet completely surprised me. It's got that really crunchy gameplay, as you say play so rapidly quick and you're like oh, it's done. But I feel like my brain has gone through you know a two hour midway Euro game that's

Jack Neville: 6:24

yeah, it's a workout isn't it? And yeah, working memory.

JP: 6:27

Have you played Kerley?. Have you play Furness?

Kerley: 6:29

I haven't actually I was just a look while you guys were talking about it does look interesting for what looks to be a primarily engine builder thing. Yeah. Yeah, it looks really interesting actually. In the Quick Play time. I don't know why but it always appeals to me like yeah, I always think like Scythe is always gonna go on longer than it actually does. But it's actually another really quick game that that feels like it's longer if that makes sense. I know we

JP: 6:53

always play Scythe and then it always surprises us that we can get it done in two hours. And we're like yeah oh, and that's like we six seven players we can just get it down it's really

Jack Neville: 7:03

a factor I just did actually playable game yesterday with my partner and it was Seven Wonders Duel, which we play a lot and I always lose. I just cant. I always try to win by science and I don't know why I do it because you're never gonna do it.

JP: 7:25

Not alone. No.

Kerley: 7:27

Yeah, I mean, I'm actually like seven wonders dual It's really good. Yeah.

JP: 7:31

Yeah. I've only played it once with my brother and I think I was in a similar camp I did awful which is quite common because I don't do great at the Seven Wonders generally

Kerley: 7:40

maybe we should get another full version soon actually.

JP: 7:43

We do is a while since we played didn't we we played several wonders with leaders and cities. We kind of did three games in one night and we have the expansions added in that was good fun that should do that again. Anyways, enough about planning gaming events. How did you get into the hobby then Jack? Like what was your kind of first experience into tabletop gaming?

Jack Neville: 8:08

Well, I think classic, you know, when I was a kid played scrabble monopoly and stuff, but I think my my gateway drug was probably Catan were in fact, maybe even small world. It was just, it was just one of my housemates at the time. We're getting into get into board games. We started playing those two quite a lot. And it kind of just snowballed from there. And yeah, I love it. It's nice. Just why I'm really enjoys that you spend time with your friends and you kind of one you don't. I'm not sure whether you're good friends, but if we go out, it's always the like the pub and you're always like, yeah, I should probably drink. Sometimes, like, we've played board game friends, it's like, you know, it's nice just to chill out in a sober environment, which is good. And, and also just not be looking at screen. Which is, like one of the things I really enjoy about it. Yeah.

JP: 9:11

Yeah, that that, for me is one of the biggest things you know, I spend, you know, over eight hours, probably more just laptop working, you know, so I was gonna sat, sat, I'm a bum. But then I'll pick a hobby where I'm sat on my bum. It's just the mediums different it's just a real just real life people and, and cardboard bits that I move around. But it is that interaction isn't it is yeah, you know, I was actually talking to another guest. We kind of likened it to the old days of playing couch Co Op on like, the Super Nintendo, like Bomberman or whatever. And it kind of gives you that same feeling of having your mates around the table playing a game laughing because obviously it's someone's misfortune, usually. And just having a great time. But yeah, sure.

Jack Neville: 10:02

Yeah. I mean, my fondest memories of being a kid is playing Mario Kart with my brothers or friends just you know, and 64 Four players. Yeah. Good times. Good.

Kerley: 10:15

I'll definitely the right age for that. One Mario Kart was my my early teens I think

JP: 10:21

that Yeah. Was that the snes version? No Kerley or was it yes before the snes is the original? Oh,

Kerley: 10:26

all of it. Literally that's what I mean. Yes is the answer to all of it I literally I was really spoiled growing up. So, we had versions of everything but probably my favourite if you go back to it Oh God, I don't know, probably the SNES version just because that's when we really got into it. But the N64 version was awesome. Mate. It really was. So we played a lot

JP: 10:46

It had 3d.

Kerley: 10:50

It was just Yeah, they were both epic. You know, they've kept a really good standard with those type of games.

JP: 10:54

Yeah. Yeah, always enjoy a bit of Mario Kart even now play that with the kids. And definitely, yeah, just when they introduced the blue shell alone annoyed me, but that's fine. That's a different podcast altogether.

Kerley: 11:08

Because you're too good, mate. That's what it is. Exactly.

JP: 11:11

Well, any MarioKart player knows you shouldn't hang out in first place. You shouldn't do it. You wait, you ride the coat tails about third place and get slightly better weapons and

Kerley: 11:22

excuse for being in third? Yeah.

Jack Neville: 11:28

biding my time, but

JP: 11:31

the race was over 10 minutes ago. But yeah, well done. Thank you for that Jack. Let's, let's move on, into the kind of main segment. Sure. So you've got a game? I have. Yeah, you've talked about developing a game Mycelia. So what is Mycelia what it's all about?

Jack Neville: 11:50

Mycelia is a forgotten how to describe. I've forgotten how to pitch my own game did that at UKGE, I was like, Dude

JP: 12:06

I've got this bit out though.

Jack Neville: 12:08

I keep it in there. So it is, again, all about the lifecycle of fungi. And so you grow mushrooms to score points. And then you spore those mushrooms to expand your mycelial network. And eventually they'll Decay to unlock special actions. And so it's it's the game that kind of really ebbs and flows and changes quite a lot. Because spores are added to the board. Mushrooms are growing and decaying. So it's quite a tactical game. And it's all on a board that's made out of triangle tiles. So even the board is different every time you pay and you can add to the board as an action so it kind of slowly expands and different in wonderful ways. Depending how many people Yeah,

JP: 12:59

there we go. So why why the theme like why mushrooms?

Jack Neville: 13:06

I guess a while ago, I was, I've always like, like, was going for walks in the countryside and stuff. And affected it was actually my, my brother in law who, who started to come foraging for mushrooms. And I think as Yeah, like as someone who's like, let's just go for a walk. And then he's just pointing these mushrooms out to me. I was like, This is so exciting. It's like finding your Easter eggs. Oh, this one you can eat? And then well, this will kill you if you didn't know what he was doing. But yeah. But yeah, just the more I kind of learn about it, and kind of going on more and more walks and spotting them. And then it's kind of just got really interested in them and start to read books. And there's a really good book called entangled life by a guy called Merlin Sheldrake, which is really interesting, really well written. And so I've kind of just got fascinated by them. And there's a few documentaries and stuff. So yeah, I just they're very interesting. Not very well known about either, because they're No, I think it was quite what I think why people are fascinated by that was that it's all most of it is under the earth. And like the little mushrooms just pop up. And then they kind of disappear again. But it's all happening underneath the Earth, which is Yeah, it's like a little mystery. But

JP: 14:33

there are a fascinating organism aren't they like when you when you learn about what they are and kind of how they work as as a kind of an entity? It's yeah, it's mind blowing. They're not just things you put on a plate that you eat, you know that that whole living breathing thing spanning miles and miles on the ground. So yeah, it's it's definitely interest I, I love games that kind of pick those unique themes. And I think that's something in board games that's made me more accessible to that because I think if you'd asked me, you know, even 10 years ago, do you want to play a game about being a bird enthusiast? And I'm like, probably not really. Doesn't really doesn't really sound that exciting to me, but But but again in the tabletop kind of hobby space and you play these games you play like wingspan, you play, you know, whatever, I'm all over it, I love it. And I just think sometimes it just opens your eyes to kind of different topics and different areas and environments and and you learn something which is great.

Kerley: 15:37

What what brought me out of that mindset is wingspan as well JP is I really want to come to that event that you put up for wingspan persuaded myself and I turned up to that one I really just thought this is a great game. You know, it really broke me of any sort of bias towards theme. You know, you still probably prefer a game that's the thing that you're interested in. But yeah, it's broke me of not giving games a try like that. Especially with the beautiful artwork in both wingspan and I have to say in your own game Mycelia it really does make it stand out. Becky was so tempted to buy one of your own. Yeah, cards at the UKGE as Well, it was only the queue that put her off in the end. It was. Yeah, fantastic artwork I have to say, especially considering I believe you were the one responsible right?

Jack Neville: 16:23

Yeah, so this whole game is my, my little baby. So I've done all the game design, graphic design illustration. Basically everything that you see, I've done so yeah, my whole journey.

JP: 16:41

That's why you haven't got time to play board games. It's because you've done everything. Yeah, now the art work is fantastic. Like we commented on it when we saw you know, saw and played the game at UK games Expo it's just it's it's phenomenal. It's like for me if it's why compare it to wingspan even though the games nothing like each other. But from a from a theme and the way they look so stunning on the table with the the artwork, it's just it kind of is a bit of a comparison in that Yeah,

Jack Neville: 17:14

but I think there's there's definitely similarities like I I like the way how wingspan is all quite, you know, scientifically accurate with all the bird names and all their locations and stuff. And that's kind of what I want to emulate a call on that kind of hard nosed sciency type of game. And but yeah, it is a different game. I think. i My aim was to create a game that was very player interactive. Yeah. So I think I do do like wingspan, but kind of the base game is this Yeah, you're just doing your own thing. And it's nice, but I want to you know, I want to have interaction and get someone to swear at me. Easier fing and Jeffing and I loved it. Yeah.

JP: 18:04

Hey, brought out the the fun game aside of as I'm sure but yeah, I mean, talk talk us through that gameplay loop, then Jack like to kind of explain it to our listeners, how does it work? Like, what's the what's the loop?

Jack Neville: 18:15

Okay, so basically, on a turn, you do two different actions, and you have six to choose from. So it's quite, it's quite easy to learn. And because there's not a huge variety of things you can do, it's the terms are quite quick, which I think people quite appreciate. Because there's always games, when you're waiting 10 minutes of your time, we appreciate

JP: 18:38

that. We appreciate that.

Jack Neville: 18:42

So basically, on return, you can either discover a mushroom, or basically you have mushroom cards in your hand and you can add cards to your hand. When your actions you can add to the board and make the board bigger. Another action is you can fruit a mushroom, which is growing a mushroom. Another action is spore so you can spore your mushrooms. And then another action is decay, which is decaying a mushroom. So basically, machines have a lifespan on the board. So they they fruit, they spore and then they decay and each mushroom can decay and it gives you a special action. So it's all about being efficient at growing mushrooms sporing them using those spores to create more mushrooms and decaying at the right time to give you a little bonuses and kind of the last thing you can do your action is move and basically there's a piece in the game called Mother mushroom, your mother mushroom. And this is this kind of how the game starts to sit as the catalyst of your fungi kingdom. And, and you could actually move that mushroom and it's quite a powerful piece is kind of akin to like Queen and chess. So you can you can move it to block other mushrooms or steal other people's spores and break up their networks because basically the whole kind of the premise of the game is all your pieces make up your mycelial network. And to fruit mushrooms you need to use spores that are connected and sort of the jeopardy of the game is that other people can disrupt that network and use your spores to grow their own mushrooms. That is a bit of a battle for space for resources.

JP: 20:29

Yeah, that that's the bit I really enjoyed, is the fact that when you're sporing, and obviously you've got the wind dice, right? So yeah, hang on the way the wind blows depends on where the spores end up landing. I love that. Because it's like, I really want them to go over there. And sometimes they don't just like, What would probably happen in real life, you know? Yeah. And, and yeah, the fact that you're trying to create that network of resources, and then Kerley comes along, and tries to ruin your day, how that tries to block it. I think the thing that surprised me in the game was the contention in terms of the interaction. And the fact that you, it's so interactive as a game because of that, and you're trying to, you know, you can't just sit in your corner of the map, doing your own thing you can if people let you do it, but then yeah,

Jack Neville: 21:22

I mean, if you're playing with another person that's also doing that, you can do that. Yeah, I always feel like it's where the more interaction the better.

Kerley: 21:29

The thing is, if you're being left alone, it's probably because you're not doing very well is kind of the point. Right? So

Jack Neville: 21:35

yeah, sure. Yeah. And that the you mentioned the wind, I kind of brought in that element because I think good games and might in my eyes always have that little bit of gambling, kind of like twists where you you want something to happen, but it may not go your way. And, and I do like games when you just like a bit like when there is no gambling, there's no luck. But I think that luck aspects. Gets you coming back. And you almost want to I want to try it again. Or try again.

JP: 22:06

It's a push your luck thing is yeah, I remember me doing it going right. There's two directions, which will help. There's one that won't because it's literally at the edge of the foot. And he's like,

Jack Neville: 22:16

god dammit. I think the same thing. Let's just go forward. Yeah,

JP: 22:21

I and you too, Just laughed at me.

Kerley: 22:25

Stories, right. I mean, the thing is that there are lots of people who like deterministic games, right. But I think you've really got to put your own personality in your own project. Right. And, and that's something you said, you definitely enjoy. And that's so important to make it a game that you will enjoy because you're gonna have to play it how many 100 times a

Jack Neville: 22:42

day. Yeah. I've kind of I did just make a game that I wanted to play. And all will kind of cherry pick elements from games. Like, like the air control boards that change or that kind of element of luck. So yeah. I played it so many times. I still enjoy it.

JP: 23:07

Has it changed a lot from its kind of first iteration? How has it evolved over time? And like,

Kerley: 23:12

When can I ask for that? Yeah, go for it. When you came up with it. Did you actively tried to come up with a board game? Or did it come to you and you were kind of inspired to follow it up? So

Jack Neville: 23:28

I, it was, the idea came to me. I wasn't really planning to make a game. But yeah, I think just the idea I kind of had this loose idea of a game about mushrooms. And it's one of those things I get once I kind of have an idea in my head I kind of just like think oh, now what maybe that maybe that maybe. And it's like a little IG thing, like making a board game is a game in itself because there's so many puzzles and things you have to work out. But to answer your question, it has has changed a fair amount, but not really a day all the board is the games always had the triangle tiles straightaway that was the first thing I wanted because I don't know why but there's just not many games that use triangle

JP: 24:18

hexs and so always hexs Yeah.

Jack Neville: 24:21

And yeah, I just thought just interesting and so I had to kind of use that as the first thing and I wanted a board that kind of the change and you can add to it but this the scoring was always a thing that early on the games there was no it was just mushrooms and there wasn't there was less kind of tactics because the mother mushroom wasn't there so it was kind of felt a bit chaotic but you couldn't really have that much control and there's there's been changes like you know, points for cards and how hard they should be or how many spores they spoke on earlier versions there was mushrooms that spoke like seven they look at the border like well this is bad this yeah, there's there's a lot of a lot of playtesting and my partner helped too that she doesn't want to play anymore. Yeah. Yeah.

Kerley: 25:26

It sounds like tweaks rather than any fundamental changes, right?

Jack Neville: 25:30

Yeah, I think. Yeah. But balancing and tweaks. Yeah. But I think what the whole kind of mechanics, it was more like the idea of the mushrooms and the science on them kind of always made the mechanics easier to work out because I was just following the science. So that yeah, it was kind of making mechanics around the science, which was kind of easier in a way where it wasn't my head anyway.

JP: 26:04

Yeah. And I think people appreciate it also helps, because that's naturally what would happen. So people got okay, that kind of makes sense. But yeah, I like to say this isn't a heavy Euro game where you've got, you know, 50 actions to remember or anything like that, like you say, you've got six and, and, and that was the thing when we started playing. I think we're just off and running. You said it is six actions. And you gave us a little card, little player aid, which is always nice. And it's like, right, cool. Get to do two of them. Off you go. And like, right, let's pull some levers. Let's do some stuff. And yeah, and you just you just start going and then once you get your head around that gameplay loop, which is quite interesting, because is it five? Is it five mushroom slots that you did? Yeah. Yeah, Max. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. So you kind of want to fruit the mushrooms. And then obviously get the decay them quickly and get the abilities and it's kind of out. But decay in them makes you reduce your board presence. And yeah, so it's like you said that ebb and flow is very interesting. Yeah, definitely pivotal moments where it can be opportunistic for the other players to jump on those times and get the timing right, but yeah, cool. So how long ago did this start then? Jack?

Jack Neville: 27:15

When was it it was before lockdown. So like, yeah, the beginnings of the idea was about the winter before lockdown.

JP: 27:25

29 2019 Yeah,

Jack Neville: 27:27

yeah. Yeah. I did actually make a terrible board game before that.

JP: 27:32

That was my next question was not not did you make a terrible board game? It was have you? Have you done any designs? Previous to Mycelia? That's

Jack Neville: 27:42

yeah, I did. I did this game. I had this idea for, like a survival game crash landing in the Sahara Desert. Yeah. And it was all about kind of, kind of exploring the wreckage and, and in my head, all the artwork was really cool. Well, I did some prototypes for the cars and stuff. And it looked really cool. But the game was just terrible. It was, it was good. It was good bits to it. But it was just one of those games where you know, you'd have your turn, and then something would happen. And then something else would happen. And then someone will go, Oh, he's saying, is that it? They'd be really confusing and blah, blah. And I forgot his turn is a bit. I think that was a sign of like, it was another one I do. So yeah, I kind of did kind of educate me and then start to develop mycelia that don't make your turn too complex. Just keep it simple. Because yeah, my kind of ethos is kind of less is more sometimes.

JP: 28:53

And I think, you know, sometimes, it's not just in board game design, I'm sure but like, you know, we've all done things and they've not kind of come out how we probably envisage them. And that's part of the process. Right? For sure. fail me. Mistakes. Absolutely. So the way you grow and learn and it's kind of like, yeah, okay, that did kind of pan out. But that's fine. Because now I know not to do those things, or I can learn from that and do something else. So yeah, I mean, the fact that it was this your second game design, then mycelia. Yeah, I mean, I mean, kudos. Because if that was your second and and when we played it, it was you know, is is there like the game was there the gameplay was there, we could, we could absolutely see and experience it. And it didn't feel even it was a prototype we were playing on is a bloody good one. To be

Kerley: 29:43

of interest by sort of bias for your own creation is kind of as old as the hills. Did you find it difficult to take constructive criticism? Or is that something that you're quite open to?

Jack Neville: 29:55

Um, I think I am open to it. I think I've kind of taught myself to be more open to it, I think because my kind of my day job is being a graphic designer. And I think years ago like someone say, Oh, I hate the word use the word hate. I don't like your design. It's not doing it for me. I'll be like, so like Oh my god, they hate me, my art. And I think just like years of that I kind of just kind of wore a duck's back. And so now even though like, this is my Passion project, I'm so invested. I don't construct a constructive critcism of Yeah, I welcome it to be honest. Because I mean, I don't listen to everyone. Because sometimes I think, well, I don't think sometimes there's no golden nuggets, you're like, Oh, I didn't think about that. So that's really, really interesting. And so you kind of just add in all the good bits, all the good feedback, which I suppose yeah, yeah, I think he needs to do that to design board game, because you can't think of everything. And this game has sort of evolved into it kind of evolved into like this tactical game, which I didn't really quite plan. It kind of just happened, the more I played it, and the kind of mechanics ended. And so yeah, and so get getting feedback is very important. I think you should embrace it to any other designers who are listening to this.

JP: 31:25

Yeah, exactly. Use use the community as well. Right. And like, yeah, when you're play testing that, especially blind play testing, that's your is your first experience of someone getting the hands on the game product and go right, well, they know nothing about this, and they're learning it from scratch and see how they feel right? And yeah, this it's, it's such an important part of the process, isn't it? So what do you think people enjoy about Mycelia? then? So what's who's it for like, to kind of pitch it to the ideal gamer?

Jack Neville: 31:54

I think it's for use it for kind of the people that like interactive games. So if, if you're and also people that are like a bit, maybe a bit of meanness in a game, not as it's not a mean game, but you know, some something where you can influence others and maybe maybe annoy them a little bit. And also, people were into tactics and because you need to almost change. You can't really, you can't have a long term plan. But it's a very windy road. Because because it changes quite a lot. And you kind of have to pivot what you're doing all the time. So I think, yeah, people who can want to do kind of quick problem solving, I guess.

JP: 32:42

Yeah. I think that's why I enjoyed my playthrough of it so much, because like, I'm not a big strategist, right? I Kerley's, the opposite. Like he can sit and go, I've planned 20 moves. And I've got my grand strategy and it won't go in, I'm more tactical. I like reacting and pivoting and doing all those things. So the fact that you said that now thinking back to my play for the game, that's definitely something I enjoyed doing, which was right reacting to the ball very quickly, right? We're going to pivot we're going to do this, try this for a few turns. Now do something else that's not working. And then I think to the point where I think Kerley even said on our expo episode, you ripped me off, didn't you? Yeah.

Kerley: 33:26

Well, that's exactly what I was gonna say is that you actually made the Mario Kart come true. Yeah, because actually, I felt like I was doing quite well and I felt like Jack was really doing well. So I pivoted to really concentrate on knocking him down whilst whilst trying to boost myself. I succeeded it to be honest, I was pretty happy with how I did and then JP snuck around the outside and took the victory. So wretched. That'd be Yeah, but that's all part of the dynamic reactionary kind of Well, part of why the reason why I really enjoyed the game

Jack Neville: 34:02

yeah, yeah, I think that that sort of reveal of the end of you don't know quite who's won, like, you know, based on your games like the point tracker, and you know, while that person is one Yeah, but request here because the you tap the cards, unless you'd like memorise everyone's mushrooms, which is very sad because you're constrained your game. You don't quite know who's ahead. sort of guess but you know, you don't often get right which is what I like that kind of big Tada moment at the end of it. Yeah.

JP: 34:40

It reminds me of like, it's nothing like this game, but it reminds me of Concordia. Okay. They're completely different games. But that has, even though that has weirdly a score tracker on the board, you don't use it until the end? Yes. Yeah. It's kind of like, right, who's what I've got no idea. And yeah, it's exciting. And everyone's really tense and sitting there going, right. I'm gonna score this 20 points. All right,

Jack Neville: 35:03

exactly. I don't know what to do. And you pass. Yeah.

JP: 35:08

So that that for me, I quite like that. So you just focus on what you're doing. You don't get demoralised because you don't really know and you just keep pushing and pushing and pushing and so Hopefully, you take the mushroom crown, as it were. So there we go. So in terms of, obviously, we're gonna be talking about the game. Like how can people get their hands on it then Jack

Jack Neville: 35:30

Welch, the Kickstarter is launching in four days, which I'm quite terrified

JP: 35:39

on the seller when this when this is episodes live

Jack Neville: 35:42

Oh, we live is launching today guy. Yeah, seventh of September 1. Yeah. So, yeah. So it's going on Kickstarter. And yeah, there's a few different pledge tiers, but the base games on there, which has, I've tried to make the base game just as lovely as possible. So there's wooden components and Jewel jewel and maps. And it's a premium based virtual basically, because I want I want to be making a game that I want. So it's just very nice components and good printing just good. Good quality.

JP: 36:19

We appreciate it. Yeah.

Jack Neville: 36:23

And yeah, so the Kickstarter is Thursday. So yeah, just head to Kickstarter, and search Mycelia. Yeah. Yeah,

JP: 36:32

we'll have the link in our show notes, listening. So just click on that. directly straight to the page. And, and definitely check out the game. Because we've played it. We thoroughly enjoyed it. I am actually keen to play more of it. And just see what other kinds of combinations of mushroom powers I can get, you know, because I've only had a little sample when you had like, what, four? I think maybe,

Jack Neville: 36:53

yeah, well, I mean, there's, there's 69 cards. And we love when we were four of us were playing. I mean, we got through maybe like a third of them. So yeah, there's always gonna be different mushrooms that you will get

Kerley: 37:08

out of interest, is there a ideal number that you have in your mind for how well it has the best play?

Jack Neville: 37:15

I think personally, I like four players, just because it's a bit more chaotic, which I quite like sometimes. And, and the board sort of kind of gets gets bigger, and so you can kind of explore a bit more. But it, it works. It works well, with two players, three players, three plays is good, too. I've had a lot of feedback when they read like it's two players. I was their favourite one, which I was quite, quite surprised by. I guess it's a bit more of a head to head, which I guess yeah, when there's four players, there's just there's more, there's more things to think about

Kerley: 38:00

Yeah, I noticed on your Kickstarter, because I've I've just set myself to be notified by email when it looks nice. Is is showing us a one player, which I didn't actually know as well. Oh, yeah.

JP: 38:13

Go solo mode. Yes. Yeah. Talk about that. Because yeah, so basically, I was solo player. Oh,

Jack Neville: 38:20

yeah. So basically, there's a set of automata cards. And you can actually add it in as a third player, if there's two of you, and you want another player Oh, that's good. I have a bit more interest. And so basically, the automata does, is still the same as like your turns, it does two different actions, but it does the actions in a certain order. So I think, if I remember it goes fruit, decay, Spore, and then move, and then explore kind of gets thrown in there in certain scenarios. But basically, it's, so if you can't do one action, you move down to the next one. And if you didn't do that, you we've done the next one, so you kind of go down in order. And it's it's very efficient at growing mushrooms, and just doing everything because it's it's, yeah, it's not like you would think, Oh, maybe I'll just do this. And then it does things really efficient order. So yeah, it can be a bit frustrating at times. I mean, it's quite hard to beat. Yeah, I was gonna say,

JP: 39:29

that's what people want, though. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, like easy AI that you're playing against and doesn't really do anything. Interesting that you want a bit of a challenge. So I really like the fact you can substitute a player for automata. But it's quite nice to have the option. So if you're too, like you're a couple and sometimes you just want that, that third player to interact so it's not just you're always picking on me, and you're always going against me, you've got that option. So is it just one that you can add in can you add in multiples?

Jack Neville: 39:57

What automatise Yeah, just just the one just the ones when you are playing with like two human players, and it's on to that there are certain situations where the automata has to, like affect someone so maybe like block a mushroom and sometimes there's like it's one doesn't pick there's there's there's another kind of fun bit Shall I quite enjoy it is where you, you basically take a spore from each of the human players and shake them and then see it's almost like another gambling aspect when you see who is gonna affect. Yeah. Which is always fun because you're like, oh, what hope it's not really red like blocked your mushroom. But it's cool.

Kerley: 40:40

So when does the Kickstarter run till Jack? You said seventh of September? Is it four weeks or

Jack Neville: 40:46

is actually slept slightly over? I've timed it. So it ends on the eighth of october so it's slightly over a month or the reason why that is is because I'm going to Essen

Kerley: 40:58

ah exactly my next question.

Jack Neville: 41:00

Yeah, so I'm gonna be at Essen and I just thought it'd be good to you know, have the last little push there when people can back in there. And then hopefully,

Kerley: 41:09

we'll be there. So we'll we'll push.

JP: 41:12

Yeah, we'll definitely be an essence our first trip we've never been before. So we're just going as regular punters as it. Were just to experience it. So. So yeah, we'll definitely come and say hello. And yeah, sure, try and support you while we're there. So that's all good. Yeah, that makes sense. Makes sense? Yeah. Last push, get some, get some more exposure. Get the lay in it. And, yes, not showing off that artwork again. Yeah. And I'm sure you're gonna have a busy store, I'm sure. Yeah. And he like Expo right. You were just absolutely rammed the whole weekend. Yeah, I

Jack Neville: 41:45

wasn't, I wasn't expecting it at all. I've kind of learned from my mistake, and I'm bringing another person with me. So I can go for a week and we

JP: 41:57

need a break. You can't tell me about mushrooms? Oh, that's great. I love that. I think you've taken the concept. You've got a product, you know, is there it's playable. It's going to be you know, going through the whole crowdfunding process. Literally right now. And yeah. And obviously thinking about the future, and more and more ideas are coming. So that's really exciting to Yeah, well, hopefully, if

Jack Neville: 42:22

this goes well, you know, I'll try and do this full time. Because it's, it's great fun. Yeah. So I mean, it's really hard work. But it's fun. It's satisfying. It's great to see people just enjoying something you've created.

JP: 42:37

Yeah. Yeah. Really tangible, isn't it? Like, yeah, you can create something, you can put it in their hands. And then they just smile and swear, in a good way, in a good way. Anyway, let's move on to the next section. And Jack. So yeah, we've got a little sometimes we do episodes, all about our niche number ones. And for those that don't know what a nice number one is, it's essentially our kind of really obscure categories that we kind of asked what your favourite game is in that really obscure category. And we just we quite like doing these. It's been a while since we've done an episode one is coming up in the in the roster fairly soon. But we like to ask our guests and get our guests opinions on some of the historical least number ones that we've asked. So clearly, you've got the list. Do you want to click? Yeah, one of them? Yeah, absolutely.

Kerley: 43:28

So the first one is the favourite game that you never win.

Jack Neville: 43:35

I think I mentioned that earlier, 7 Wonders Duel.

Kerley: 43:39

Oh really?

Jack Neville: 43:41

love it. I always want to play. I just I think I deserve this time, but I just don't always.

JP: 43:46

Are you close? Like, is it? Or is it like

Jack Neville: 43:49

when I played it yesterday? I was sometimes, sometimes. But yeah.

JP: 43:58

Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. I'll do the next one. If you like. What's your favourite game that you thought would replace a game but it didn't?

Jack Neville: 44:10

Oh, that's a tricky one.

JP: 44:12

Yeah, um,

Jack Neville: 44:17

I guess I played Kemet, which I kind of thought would replace inis Yeah, cuz it's, yeah,

JP: 44:29

it's not a map.

Jack Neville: 44:29

And I had all those like, cool, like giant scorpions and stuff. This is cool. But it didn't quite do it. For me. I still really liked I still really like it, but it just didn't quite take over that top spot. And now there's a new version of Kemet. In fact, a new version of SQL these two, which Yeah, there is

JP: 44:50

does is it Blood and Sand? Yeah, something like that. Yeah, so probably more detoxified version and probably balanced it out a little bit from what I've heard, but I never played it always looks quite interesting. But I think the first time I heard of Kemet was when Shut up and sit down did a review of it about 17 years ago whenever it was probably not that long. But it felt like a long time ago. Yeah. Cool. Okay, Kerley

Kerley: 45:20

All right, so we've got a favourite game, you have to have an app for an app for if you've played any

Jack Neville: 45:28

games, no. As I said, I'm playing board games the off my screen. Again that is it. Does Mysterium. Does that have an app?

Kerley: 45:46

I Dont think it does. I know Mansions of Madness does? Oh, that's the

Jack Neville: 45:50

one. That's the one. I mean, mansions of madness. I played that. And I was like, I just, yeah, I don't I don't look at screen. I want to look at some cardboard.

JP: 46:02

Yeah. The first edition. And that's what you need. Yeah. But then you'd be like, I want to look at too much cardboard. But it's just too much to do it. But I've got to do the puzzles, like by hand and I've got to set the puzzles up. And then I copy

Kerley: 46:17

out like do like apps that reduce the admin I have to say, but that's where I draw the line.

Jack Neville: 46:23

saying that I do sometimes play games on like board game arena and stuff play the game seasons.

JP: 46:30

No, I haven't.

Kerley: 46:32

I've crossed off the games with the area. It might be a different one I'm thinking of actually.

JP: 46:37

It's like, it's like wizards aren't you like conjuring there's like it's

Jack Neville: 46:42

all the hour it's quite bonkers. And there's I don't know what the theme is really. But what the mechanic which I really love is that dice and then basically kind of roll dice and then people pick certain dices. And the ones that are leftover, do something to go obviously it's been a while you do something but when I when I played that and I was like oh, this seems like a lot of admin if I was playing in real life so I really enjoyed reading when it's just like, doesn't the score enjoy the

Kerley: 47:20

game arena lately so yeah, I've been obsessed with arc Nova playing that with a few different people.

Jack Neville: 47:26

Nice like a playing arnak

Kerley: 47:31

you know what? I love last rounds of Arnak but It's so upsetting to me that it doesn't have the expansion with the Board Game Arena version. Expansion. Yeah, it adds a lot to it. So it's difficult because I've got the base game, I've got the expansion at home, it's difficult then to go to the non expansion version.

JP: 47:51

But thats Dune, but to do Dune based, I'll be like, on a play with rise of ix. And I want to play with the other things because I'm just spoiled. That's all it is. All these options,

Kerley: 48:04

and we could probably argue that we're spoiled to be fast with that,

JP: 48:09

spending hundreds of pounds on cardboard. That's what we do. Cool. Well thank you for that Jack. We'd like to just do a little niche number one most fun and games and you always I mean the fact that we didn't prepare you and you answered them off the hip that was pretty good. Well done definitely. And that's down to me not not planning so

Jack Neville: 48:31

although all they want about artists we're just going to say

JP: 48:36

it's an answer. I could have defaulted to another one of our 50 that we're gonna backlog so we're good so last last question. Kind of for me is you know what, what are you excited about? Obviously the Kickstarter because that's live will be Yeah, but like any kind of future events and games that you've got on horizon to maybe play one day that you're excited about

Jack Neville: 49:04

games that I I'm excited to play yeah, yeah. Well I'll tell you what I got I got brass Lancashire a little while ago I suppose my birthday in February and I still haven't played it so I'm very excited to pay that but again, as I say One day

JP: 49:23

we might have it until the after Essen is done

Jack Neville: 49:26

but yeah, so I'm excited to and I've seen a few online which request I don't really want to pay Terracotta Army I don't really know much about it but I love the theme. Yeah, something about it just speaks to me but I'm sure somebody I know as if

JP: 49:46

anyone's got it let Jack know

Jack Neville: 49:49

in terms of kind of events and really sort of Essen Yeah, you're first Essen, so have you been before? Yes my first one I'm Yeah, slightly. Sorry, my mouth now because I was at the end of UKGE lessons in bigger isn't it so

JP: 50:09

you got a four full days are you? Yeah, yeah. So you got one extra day and it's bigger. Yeah, guys, yeah. They can't get bigger. I think essen probably what is it the biggest if not close to?

Jack Neville: 50:23

I think it's one of the biggest. Yeah.

JP: 50:25

So what's the best place to be? I

Kerley: 50:27

think I see Europe. I think

JP: 50:30

it's absolutely huge.

Jack Neville: 50:32

Yeah. And then I guess I'm just Yeah, I'm just very excited slash putting my pants about Thursday. Because you'll be fine. Yeah, I know people keep saying that. But I'm really worried that something terrible is gonna happen like a hurricane or something, and everyone's gonna lose their internet.

Kerley: 50:54

It will take a whole month to sort it out.

Jack Neville: 50:56

Yeah. Or like, there'll be some news like this anyways, but now I'm really excited. And was I'm really excited to just kind of see the final version, because I made all these prototypes myself, but there's something different about when it's printed properly, you know? And like, yeah, again, trays and all that jazz. And also, it's like, just see how it does.

Kerley: 51:27

Well, best of luck from me.

JP: 51:30

Like, what likewise. I mean, it's solid. I absolutely I'm not just saying this. I absolutely enjoyed my first play of it, but it is definitely one of my highlights for from Expo which listen to our expo episode. I said it then I promise, I'm not just saying it to your face. And it's it's a great cracking game. And I recommend everybody who's listening to this, check it out. Because it's unique theme. If you love interaction, it's got it in spades. And it doesn't, you know, doesn't sit on the table for four hours. You know, you can play lots multiple games in one evening, I think with it. And yeah, I definitely wish you the best of luck with the crowdfunding and we'll help where we can.

Jack Neville: 52:11

Thank you so much. Thanks. Thanks for having me. Not good. Good.

JP: 52:15

No problem. Thank you very much, Jack. Thanks, Jack. Cheers so there we go. I just want to say a big thank you for listening. And if you have enjoyed the show, please share this episode with a member of your gaming group or someone who you think will enjoy our podcast we would really really appreciate that. You can get in contact with us for all our usual methods which you can check on the show notes whether that's Facebook, whether that's Instagram, etc. It's all there. And we'll be back again next week with some more board gaming content. So see you then.