Becky: 0:33

Hello and welcome to Whose turn is it Anyway, our podcast where we try to bring you into our board gaming group. I'm joined on this side of the microphone by JP. Hello, how's it going?

JP: 0:44

Oh, good. Thank you. Good. Ready, ready for tonight? Yeah,

Becky: 0:47

I'm super excited. We've got a very, very incredibly super special expansion pack episode for you today. I'm actually trying very hard not to totally fangirl out of all control, because it's our absolute honour to be joined today by the creators of one of our and my favourite games, and not just one of our favourite games. You know, the prizes it's won is ridiculous. name but one, the 2022 UK games Expo best board game, Euro style People's Choice Award winner, the 2022 American tabletop complex games winner, the list goes on. It's Mín and Elwen from the Lost ruins of Arnak and I cannot believe that we're about to interview them. OMG

JP: 1:30

Let's go and meet them shall we.

Becky: 1:31

Yeah, let's do it. It's none other than Mín and Elwen, the creators of The Lost ruins of Arnak. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us guys. It's well, we're so appreciative. And it's great to meet the creators of one of our favourite games. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming in. So just to kind of get a little bit kind of gamify our podcast as we normally do. What are your favourite games of all time?

Mín: 2:11

Oh, the most difficult question

JP: 2:13

of all got to start somewhere.

Mín: 2:16

This is really hard for us, we usually tend to really play almost everything that comes out. So it's kind of broad a wide range of things to choose from. But the games that we kind of are coming back to often I would say, for me personally, I really would say it's Terraforming Mars.

Becky: 2:39

Fantastic.

Mín: 2:44

But I also like games like Space Alert. Okay. Like, really like the cooperative. It's so unique. It's so unique. Because it's like, you keep panicking all the time. And it's just so much fun.

Becky: 3:01

The coop games are kind of we don't play many of them. Do we really our gaming group are a little bit more Stabby.

Elwen: 3:10

Mostly play cooperative games actually. Play with our kids

Mín: 3:15

and our friends and we want to stay friends.

JP: 3:19

It's nice when you win together, right? Yeah, so it always feels good when you've been in the game. So lately, you play a few

Mín: 3:27

like tyrants of the Underdark That's brilliant. Yeah. So deck builder. Okay, like these drove factions and you really trying to you know, rule the underworld. So it's combining deck builder with like, area control. I really like that.

Elwen: 3:48

I think it's one of the very underappreciated gains like if you have a chance to give it a try. I think maybe it's because of the visual and doesn't click with everyone but the game is so good. Yeah, yeah, the theme

Mín: 4:00

is kind of obscure because it's the like DND theme which draws evil guys basically. So I don't think nobody

Elwen: 4:11

surely people know it but I think it deserves more attention than it gets

Becky: 4:15

must be so many games out there that haven't ever kind of reached that you know, big peak or got the kind of advertising that they deserve and all these games that could be like you know hidden under the surface that are amazing that we just don't know about which is you know why we love to speak to people and get their you know top top stuff because

JP: 4:34

we always learn like when we when we speak to guests we always learned of new games that we have not heard of that one before and usually writing them down or usually when I'm actually cutting the episode I'd write write that one. Write this one down check on BoardGameGeek see what it's what it's all about and yeah, just good to see what were kind of other people's kind of tastes go because it kind of you know, takes you to a game you never heard and then you get to play something really special. Right? And yeah, I

Elwen: 4:58

did the same and I think it's always fun because especially with the with those games that are like flew under the radar. There are so many gems, right like Yeah, it feels like a treasure hunt. Oh,

Becky: 5:08

absolutely.

Elwen: 5:11

Even to answer your question like for me really the best game I can play the game I haven't played before. I love discovering nice things. So

Becky: 5:18

I like discovering them. But I'm not very good at making myself be able to learn. I really struggle when I don't already know how to play something. I'm better at it now than I used to be, I think but that was a real, it was a real

Elwen: 5:32

rule, either.

Mín: 5:36

I usually want to play games I already know. And I can kind of learn them better. You know, I'm giving them a really a really kind of see through all the strategies and kind of learn all of it. Yeah,

JP: 5:51

yeah, I always come. Yeah, I'm definitely I'm in the new game cam I, every day, I just love. I love getting the new puzzle. And then unboxing it learning it. And then just exploring and going, Oh, my God, like, wow, this is how the hell did someone come up with this? That's usually my first statement for most geeky. And yeah, don't get me wrong, there are games and staple games that I will kind of go over and play and play and play. Because they just give you that that variety, every time you play, so you can never really get bored of them. And there's, there's loads out there like like that now, right?

Becky: 6:27

Yeah. And I think you know, one of the main ones for me is definitely the lost ruins of arnak for that. Because it's just it's so... the variety. And that never ending changeability of the game. That is just what brings me back to this game. It's just so often so yeah, I'm going to try not to really you already have I know, yeah, I've already got five minutes. You know, for anyone on the planet? Who hasn't heard of it? How do you quickly describe, you know, Lost Ruins of Arnak? How would you kind of say it in a couple of sentences? Well,

Mín: 7:03

it's a it's a, sort of a little bit of a deck builder combined with worker placement. And its theme that's like, people say Indiana Jones as like a lost world theme, where you compete like, against other players, and trying to collect the most points by building up your actions that you can play,

Elwen: 7:28

like resource conversion, but like, I think what it really, I don't know, like, we actually designed this game as a challenge, we try to see if we are able to combine two of our favourites and mechanisms together. So it's really started as a challenge. And we'd really love deck builders, and we will work replacement games. So yeah, so that's how it started. And at the end, we created a game that we will enjoy. So well,

Becky: 7:52

you're not the only ones that enjoy it. I mean, I'm just looking at BoardGameGeek. And it's still in the top third, it's 28th Best Game of BoardGameGeek. Ever. I mean, that is just, you know, of all the games ever released, ever, ever, ever. You're in that top pinnacle. So that would just

Mín: 8:09

be crazy, right? How that happened?

Becky: 8:13

I can well, I can tell you why I think it happened. What was it that brought you into the hobby? Was it kind of that? Did you have that love of the idea of wanting to, you know, kind of meld those two mechanics, like you just said together? Or did you always have this kind of background idea of this story that you wanted to tell? What was it that kind of, you know, brought you into this into this designing part.

Elwen: 8:34

We were designing games even before none of them were successful enough that our friends would even want to play it twice. So once we get this design done to the point where people requested to play again, we felt like oh, we have something there. But this one actually really started as a challenge to see if we are able to combine the mechanism that we like so and from the very beginning or fairly close to the beginning, it had the theme we really wanted. We didn't think about Indiana Jones it was more like a we want to go into this couple of Lost Worlds kind of like kind of worlds when you are coming to just Uncharted place. And everything is new and mysterious, and you want to explore the land. So yeah,

Becky: 9:20

I love that kind of feeling when you're maybe on turn two, by the time you've got just enough compass to go into those kinds of first levels. And you think I'll be really good. Be really good guardian, please be really good. Yeah, I love that kind of you don't know what you're gonna get? Are you going to get something that is just going to be impossible to beat in that first go. I love that. It's just such a great, kind of let you say it's different every time. You never know how you know how it's gonna go. It's just brilliant. Exploration. Yeah, absolutely

Mín: 9:48

Interesting part of it, because you already had the core game. Like kind of chisled out but the game kept missing something. And then one day, I was like watching our kids play and they were like playing with these giant like monsters built from my old Lego pieces, you know, and we're like, fighting I was like, Yeah, that's what they're missing. Like, if you need some Guardian something Yeah. That's how it came to be actually. So

Becky: 10:14

I love the fact that it isn't particularly combative game, you don't have to beat these guardians. You don't have to, you know, you can discover them and run away again, if you want to, if you you know, but it's yeah, it's got that kind of slight combat but but more kind of Yeah, the challenge, I think, which is definitely what gives it that kind of interest in that variant, that variation. So when you design your games, do you kind of how does your design process look like? Do you each have certain aspects that you do? Or do you do everything together? How it kind of what does your kind of designing look like?

Mín: 10:50

Who the I think depends, like, sometimes we just need some peace and quiet and just down and write out the ideas and kind of make it all work at least a little bit together. Sometimes we just talk about it. And we just juggle ideas and brainstorm bits. So it's different at different stages of the process, actually. So

Elwen: 11:11

I would say we do most of the stuff together, there are some aspects like for example, when we do the first really rough prototypes, when you just drop quickly, something on a piece of paper, and you spread it all over the table. That's really means that idea like this whole area of expertise, she can just drew beautifully little messy

Mín: 11:30

prototypes. Yeah.

Elwen: 11:34

Which is brilliant. I love this.

Mín: 11:38

Like this, this is how they like the design process itself. For us, it has many stages from like the first like really rough, like just scribbled on a piece of paper, and we kind of make it look a little bit nicer, and maybe count or a bit more of the math in it, you know, just when the first mechanics click together, then we decide to put more working more into it and make it all look nice and work better. And slowly work towards the end goals.

Elwen: 12:08

But even before we touch paper, and pen and paper, we spend so much time just discussing it and talking about it and we go for walks and we just brainstorm ideas and write those down. And they just everyday, they are different, you know, like, we're still working on the same project. But then we flip through the notebooks and like 10 Different games, they're

Becky: 12:29

like, you've had this crazy dream with something and that gets added in. And it sounds like you're really kind of crafting the story then before you actually kind of maybe think about how this is going to work with this, you're kind of getting the overview of what you want to kind of the sense of the game that you want to get out rather than the nitty gritty of how the pieces work, which is that kind of that's what it sounds like.

Mín: 12:50

I think it goes both ways. Like because the story doesn't really get conveyed without the mechanics actually conveying it, you know, in a game. So it's hard to say like, you can have a great story. But if the mechanics doesn't really hold up well, and it's not interesting choices in the game, it will kind of fall apart anyway. Yeah.

Elwen: 13:12

That's what me is often I just tried to imagine how I want to feel when I'm playing the game. So I kind of like I give... I start from the feeling and I'm trying to capture it with with theme and the mechanism to capture that feeling I'm aiming for. Yeah,

Mín: 13:27

so basically, the mechanic has to convey the feeling as well. It's not just you know, making it look pretty. Really needs to work.

Becky: 13:38

Yeah, yeah.

JP: 13:39

Do you find obviously, you mentioned you're going for walks to kind of inspire, you know, innovative ideas? Or are you saying, You know what, I've thought about this today? Did you find because obviously, you design games as a partnership, do you find that kind of helps motivate each other to kind of get to that end goal? Or do you find actually, can it be kind of difficult as well, because there's two mines that you have to kind of agree on things as well. So do you do you find, yeah, I'm interested to know how that partnership works. Because usually designers that we speak to that

Becky: 14:09

they do it on their own? Yes, like a one man band.

JP: 14:11

So yeah. And it's quite cool that you do it together as a partnership. I love that.

Mín: 14:15

I think it's I kind of like a bit of both. Like sometimes you're really it's really great to, you know, when you talk about an idea, it can have serious flaws in it, you know, and you just don't see them. So it's really great. Somebody kind of stops you sooner than later. Because the more effort you put into it, the less you are willing to see the mistake or

Becky: 14:41

the flaw. Yeah, that's definitely true. I think

Mín: 14:44

I know hurts more. It's your baby, you don't want to you worked so hard for it. So yes, the sooner seems better. And at the same time, we have different preferences, right? So I may like different kinds of games. And I wonder if that's because sometimes we just disagree on how to change what we have, you know, like, you have two different ideas and each of us would like to pursue a different one. So he really said Well,

Elwen: 15:14

that and sometimes we just say We still both believe our idea is the one. Yeah. Yeah, designing different gateways and then ended up with two prototypes, and like we've tested and see which one is better. And in the best case scenario, we have two games. That's

Becky: 15:32

yeah, I can imagine trying to design a game with with my husband Kerley, who's part of our gaming group. And because we look at things from such different kinds of directions, I can't imagine what kind of madness would happen. And I'm definitely guilty of thinking, well, well, I've definitely thought this through. So my idea has got to be the best. So yeah, you must have a lot more ability for kind of getting in the middle, a middle ground than I don't think I would ever be able to do. And why do you think that arnak has been so popular? Because it is just, you know, the List of awards that you've won? You know, it's just amazing. What is the most popular? What is that kind of spikes?

Mín: 16:15

I actually think we don't really know that. That was luck. Yeah,

Elwen: 16:21

I think we got lucky. And it was just a combination of factors. We were so lucky, not just with the things collect, and the game worked. And I know, people in that time, were ready for this kind of like combination of new mechanics and stuff like that. But also, we were so glad to meet such a gifted people, artists that help us to create this world. And I think the artists a big part of the success of the game as well.

Mín: 16:45

Yeah, I think beautiful. Yes, I think the artwork really had a lot. And also a fun thing was like the sort of competition with dune Imperium. Yeah, like, it just got announced, like, two weeks after they announced the game. And all the time. It's good compared and I think it boosted actually the fame of both of the games. Yeah,

Becky: 17:09

maybe? Yeah, yeah. We were talking about that. In our group. It's, it's such an interesting mix of of the mechanics, like you were saying before, and then to have another game really quite close together that sort of marry these two together. I mean, I know where my you know, money is for the favourite game, and I make no kind of qualms about saying that a lot on our podcast

JP: 17:29

stop fangirling

Becky: 17:30

Well, you know, it's just, it is just, you know, I think the the accessibility of your game, it can be really easily taught and learnt, but then it makes you want to come back for more, especially if you don't win, like I don't often with my husband, that replayability is just, it's just vast, there's so many strategies that you can that you can go with. And it was one of the first games I ever played with this kind of dual card play, for example, you know, you've got the ability on the card, but then you've also got those icons, you know, to play with. Yeah, it's the variations with all the leaders that you can use. So I never played the bass game. I've only ever played it with the leaders. So I am with that. Yeah. Yeah, all the research tracks that you can use. It just makes you keep wanting to come back from war to try Oh, this time, I'm going to try doing this or, yeah, it's, it's such a you can never beat the puzzle because the puzzle changes every time. And I really, really like that as a, you know, as a game as a game play.

JP: 18:31

Let's see your your husband, he can beat the puzzle. He beats every puzzle, it doesn't matter what game it is. It's one of the people that can just figure them out. It's impressive.

Becky: 18:42

He loved the mechanic. So when we played the latest expansion, he really liked how you can sort of upgrade your character's abilities, you know, as you play as you play the game, but that works in exactly well with his kind of brain. I really liked the tactile nature of that kind of twisty turny and the little you know, the assistant monkey is just brilliant. But you know, he was someone whose

JP: 19:05

What's the monkey's name, got a name hasn't it?

Becky: 19:07

Rusty

JP: 19:08

Yeah, that's what my dog's called.

Becky: 19:12

You go, yeah, he's great at sort of pre planning all his turns and knowing I'll do this, so I'll slot the little gold nugget in this. He's already got that. I mean, unfortunately, was the lowest score I ever had. But he normally scores about sort of late 80s mid to late 80s. Every game what would you know, what kind of is the average score? What do you think?

Elwen: 19:35

Well, that's a very good score. I mean, like,

Becky: 19:38

I wanted you to say 190, so I could tell him he's rubbish, but it's not.

Elwen: 19:42

It's very hard to consider to consistently consistently score over 100 So like, I think, if you're really good at Arnak you can aim for like 90 Plus. Yeah, and sometimes when you get lucky or if your opponents give you space, then you can go over hundreds. And those are nice games.

Becky: 20:07

The game I got the highest he beat me by one point I thought I had it I was I was getting sorry. No, he beat me by one point. I You'll get there. I won't ever go.

JP: 20:19

You will one day. Maybe you have beaten him another game. Yeah, just need to beat him in Arnak. You've done it. Yeah. But you know, it's interesting what you say about Dune Imperium. So that was a question that I had in my mind and the fact that people do compare them because of the deck building and worker placement mechanics, but they, for me, they couldn't be more different in how they feel. But everyone's like, Yeah, but which one? Would you get that one or this one? It's like, what the different just because they share mechanisms. And

Elwen: 20:51

they're excited, because like, they're such a design space. They're like, there's a lot more games out. We it's like both of them are one of the most basic game in our collection, I think. Yeah, certainly. Yeah. Because we just love the buildings, like builders, and we'd love to work replacements, these are just perfect mix. And yeah, but the feel you have from these games as such, is very important in different. I can only imagine that there could be more games like that. So I hope more people will design.

Mín: 21:23

Yeah, it's fun to play. You know, if you don't have to design it yourself, then.

Becky: 21:30

I guess it must be nice for you to play a sort of similar mechanics game that you haven't had to design and kind of a bit like if you're cooking a huge meal for someone you don't want to eat your own your own meal creation. It's lovely to have a different kind of

Mín: 21:41

When we're designing games, it's like when you design it, you sort of already no other strategies. Yes. You like to kind of explore in the game that Yeah, yeah. Because you have it all figured out. So playing game that it's like in the same space, I really liked doing actually like it more with the expansions. But still, it's great. It's, I think you'll like it, because it's just this similar mixture of mechanics. We that's just right up our alley. So

JP: 22:12

yeah, and then another one was it Endless Winter, I think it was another one that kind of came out a bit later that again, had a kind of slight that building worker placement element to it again, couldn't be more different interests, or feel. So yeah, it's an interesting space. And I definitely think there's a lot more to explore with with that kind of dual mechanism. And, you know, and the fact that the deck building elements of it are just so interesting, because that's what makes it so different. Because you've always got your your market row of cards that you're buying and I know in our neck has that nice, unique aspect of you know, as the rounds progress, you get less of one option or more the other.

Becky: 22:54

I never go hard enough in artifacts. And then I always regret it every time I play. He's telling me no. And each time I play I think right I'm definitely going to do a different different strategy. So I'm gonna go for guardians or I'm not gonna go for guardians. And then when I look at my scores, I almost score the same kind of, you know, amounts in each form, I thought, but I thought I was doing it so differently.

JP: 23:16

And it just meant Yeah, I have to say this is Becky does the same thing and Terraforming Mars, right. She gets obsessed with microbes. See, like every game because I'm not going to do microbes and then the microbes cards come out and you get love it. I do micro queen.

Becky: 23:36

Stop makes me that makes that sounds wrong. Okay, thanks.

Mín: 23:42

Why the opposite? Like, I'm always like, I really have to finally try the microbes. I never

Becky: 23:46

know but it never works. It never works for me Mín, but that's I'm sure you're much more competent gameplay. I started out strong and then it all just always falls by the wayside.

Mín: 24:00

Just you know, planting trees everywhere.

Becky: 24:04

Yeah, we end up finding that most of the time we don't actually Terraform until right near the end. And then it's suddenly crazy, you know, carnage of getting all your stuff out? You think we're meant to be Terraforming Mars? But actually I've made a nice little card engine permanent

Mín: 24:20

engine building

Elwen: 24:22

with like, all the expenses you can get right like there's so many cars that can help you just to build the engine. Yeah, building engines keep better engine and better engine is this planet that doesn't get

Becky: 24:34

really good engine for titanium or something. Corporation

JP: 24:37

is going What are we doing? Just faffing around doing all these projects for no reason. But just to get glory and VP. Nobody

Mín: 24:46

ever stepped on Mars. You know, we just think they're the city's

Becky: 24:53

Martian Rails there, but they're not going anywhere. There's nothing to visit. So with your amazing expansion that came out in 2023, What month was it? Not that? Yeah, I think it would be

Elwen: 25:08

release so pre release. The latest. The Missing expedition? Yes, it was. It was released during the Gen Con And then the properly release was during Essen.

Becky: 25:20

So I'm not really much of a solo player, but the more I read into the campaign mode, it's just made me really, really interested to actually play a game on my own. Probably because I know I, well, I could still lose. But my husband isn't gonna beat me on this one. With your husband. Yeah, well, then I just feel like he's just telling me how to play game. But I like how you don't have any more new rules to learn. So we kind of set aside half an hour before we even open the box to go right. Well, we'll learn the new rules before we and there aren't any new rules. And that was really really lovely as a you know, as a gamer not to have to sit and then reevaluate all the stuff we did you just need to look at your leader. I really appreciated that. Thank you very much.

JP: 26:04

Thank you. Nice learning.

Becky: 26:08

Yeah, so the only other games I've ever done solo was framework, the Uwe Rosenberg, kind of one player game, but so this is probably the first game, I've actually wanted to try my hand at doing a solo version. What is your sort of one piece of advice? Basically, I'm looking for top tips here. What's your one piece of advice to kind of to be good at the campaign version?

JP: 26:31

Secrets?

Mín: 26:34

Maybe keep, like, really attention on the goal for first play at least, and maybe don't bother so much with the achievements.

Becky: 26:44

Okay. Right. Focus on,

Mín: 26:46

don't be afraid to maybe set the difficulty lower because Thank you. We call it like, easy, medium and hard difficulty, right? Yes. before it was like normal and hard and then impossible.

Elwen: 27:08

But it's possible. I mean, like, it's, you know, it's, it's

Mín: 27:12

possible, but it's really hard.

JP: 27:13

It's a challenge. Yeah. Okay. Well, I've

Becky: 27:15

I've got permission from the designers. Now. JP, you heard that? Didn't? The listeners have heard it? I'm allowed to try it on easy to get. Yeah.

Elwen: 27:23

We designed in such a way that it always will feel impossible to beat. And then we will win? If I mean, probably, if you know are like, but like one thing,

Mín: 27:36

so don't give up.

Elwen: 27:37

Don't give up? Because the situation may look hopeless but it may not be. So that's one. The other is we designed it in such a way that, as you mentioned, that you like to play in similar style all the time. Well, that wouldn't work. Okay,

Becky: 27:55

so it might teach me more, more and more ideas. Okay, that might

JP: 27:59

make you a better player.

Elwen: 28:00

Yeah. Every chapter there will kind of force you into some kind of different routes to take that you wouldn't usually take in Arnak. And that's special rules and advantages you can have or different goals that you need to focus on. So yeah, there are extra challenges like that. You also mentioned that, like, you don't probably want to play it cooperatively with your husband. One, we actually heard from our friends who, and they hate playing cooperatively. They said that like this just worked for them for some reason. So maybe we can try because if for some reason this worked for some people who told us like cooperative games would never work for them. And suddenly this campaign, there

Mín: 28:46

were a couple couples who told us that so it's interesting. Maybe not so, but they like this so because

Elwen: 28:56

you have so much your own player agenda. Like, it would feel like you're playing almost normal arnak. But you need to kind of like like divide, it's like, Okay, you go for this, I will do this. And but you need to figure out how to achieve that. So

JP: 29:11

yeah, yeah, don't block me in this space because I needed to do X. Okay.

Becky: 29:15

I don't think I'll be able to do that because he's so that's that's one of his you know, real special abilities is already working out what you want to do what you need to do first and just doing it. And then you like, little blighter you got in. So that yeah, maybe if we're playing it cooperatively, and he doesn't add it doesn't don't put what No, he doesn't put absolutely doesn't do it with malice. He just does it? Because that's yeah, he's just, yeah, he's just very efficient at it. So maybe, maybe if we have to work together, and it'll be to everyone's benefit, perhaps that would be and maybe I can sort of see inside the workings of his mind and figure out how he always manages to win. So

JP: 29:51

maybe that is a I mean, I am a solo player I play well, I play all sorts. So I really like that feeling when you're playing a solo game where it does feel like you're up against it. It does feel like you're done if I'm gonna make this and then when you do pull that off, it's just a real sense of achievement. So if that's if that's the feeling you're invoking, and playing that's, that's perfect for me, because if they're solo mode too easy There's no challenge and therefore it's not as interesting. So you got to kind of feel like the games giving it to you.

Becky: 30:24

That's it. If you know you're going to win every time, you know, it's not a game then is this you could watch TV programme or something. So

JP: 30:31

I was playing recently, Imperium classics, which is designed by David Turczi, Nigel buckle, and I play in that solo loads I, literally this week, I must have played it six, seven times. I'm kind of obsessed. And that has a game where you are up against the rival nation. And there were some games where I'll just oh my god, I'm not gonna win this and then managed to squeak out the end it just like just like that was the highlight of my week.

Becky: 31:01

Did you do a celebratory lap around the table on your own?

JP: 31:03

Pretty much? Yeah. I think my wife was looking at me a bit. What are you doing? There we go. That's the thing. They're in my house.

Becky: 31:10

So we've got a couple of niche number ones that we'd like to throw in to our guests if if you're happy with it, so yeah,

JP: 31:18

so if you haven't heard of our niche number ones are niche number ones are like your favourite game. It's really obscure niche circumstance. So it's kind of we might be putting you on the spot a little bit. So the Yeah, the first one we've got is what game do you love to play, but you rarely win. So your favourite game you love to play, but you rarely win and you're just like, god dammit. Why can't I win this for?

Elwen: 31:44

Which one? Is it? Like Calico Yeah, the level of my brain. I always tried to achieve too much. I didn't fail in everything.

Becky: 31:57

It was like a cutesy game. I haven't actually played that. Well. No, I haven't. Yeah. Yeah, it's in my sort of category of cutesy involves animals nice colours. Yeah.

Mín: 32:08

I can't actually remember any. She's always winning. She'll

JP: 32:14

find out that dynamic now. And you're the one that crushes games.

Elwen: 32:20

I guess if you were losing all the time, maybe it's not here anymore. Maybe?

Becky: 32:26

That's one way of getting around,

JP: 32:27

isn't it? Yeah, just sell the game. Any game that I had in mind, I've already purged from my memory and

Mín: 32:33

I looked at play. I think there was one like that I really liked playing but I was kept losing.

Elwen: 32:40

I know. I know. She's got it.

Mín: 32:44

Pillars of the earth. It's like, all the game you Yeah. used to play back in the day. was one of the first worker placements. I remember actually. We

Elwen: 32:54

played it so much, because I think it was part of one competition that we took part in, right. Yeah. I'm

Mín: 33:01

not better the game. I actually think I'm pretty good at it. But just he's so much better at it. Because you've had so much training, right? You always beat me just like I always try so hard. And then suddenly, I find out I lost again. You know, I always think, Okay, I have one now, you know, it has to be this way. And then I just, it just falls apart.

Becky: 33:26

Especially when you think yeah, I've got this one. I've got it and you get all it well, I get all excited because it's such a rare occurrence. And then you just see the scores coming in and it's like oh 10.4

JP: 33:35

Another 10 points, another 20 points, thought I did so well is

Becky: 33:39

good is when you know games have like end of End of game scoring. But like they aren't going over so you kind of got your score most of the way and then you do the all the final scores. And then that's when my husband just crushes everyone usually and you'd lost and then you lose by you know, ridiculous number and then you just feel a bit sad let's just play again. Yeah, because you think this time I'm gonna do it yeah,

JP: 34:03

there's always a new opportunity. Yeah, there's always a new game maybe

Mín: 34:07

maybe he does it on purpose you know he doesn't want to discourage you during the game. He's going to win anyway so he's just delaying it so you I really maybe

Becky: 34:17

right maybe you're right

JP: 34:20

yes, those are all up at the end Yes. Just the crusher. Always the final you know

Mín: 34:27

sometimes will happen to us like we start playing the game and the second round I know I've lost already no charge just finished playing it.

Becky: 34:36

Put me out of my misery. I know it's gone wrong.

Mín: 34:40

You can read or write your statistics you won this game and we can start with you.

Elwen: 34:46

Okay, shoot the next question.

JP: 34:48

Next question. You ready? So what game was was your favourite game that you didn't think you would like either because of the box or the theme, whatever. But now you just love so maybe something that you wasn't really interested in. But now you're like, I absolutely adore and love this game. Two such games actually want to niche number two's.

Mín: 35:12

The Ascension is one of the major games for me because they are To me, like, I don't really like the artwork didn't look appealing to me. And I almost almost like never tried it. But then I started playing it and I got, it's like one of my favourite games ever, you know. So I just kept playing it all the time. And then another game and they were already talked about this one is the Tyrants of the Underdark just doesn't look nice. You know?

Becky: 35:41

I like how that's important to you. It's important to me in the game as well. Yeah, well, that's why I was put off Lords of Waterdeep I mean, not that I'm against d&d Because like, you know, I've done d&d In the past but that board that the sort of not the board or specific but the box looks at people with sword and I don't care about it's one of my favourite kind of easy to play, just get it to the table games. I absolutely love it now. But I didn't play it for years. Just because No, it's not for me. Don't want it. Show me game with little animals on it. Yeah, I'm all ears. I'm happy to play even if whatever like it.

Elwen: 36:20

So for me, it will be often is the art kind of like I'm expecting the game to be something and then something else, for example, lately is both the game it's also cooperative The Loop, I really enjoyed. Yeah. And I just thought it will be you know, something for kids. And maybe I would enjoy the kids such as brain burning paradise for me, you know, like, even so it's just it's such a nice game,

Mín: 36:47

but the case actually like playing it. I was surprised by the by people. It's It's interesting game. I was surprised it didn't you know, get more famous. How fell through the cracks?

Elwen: 37:02

I really think it's a very well designed game.

JP: 37:06

Yeah, check that one out.

Mín: 37:07

I think it's best like two, maybe three players. So I wouldn't try them for five, but it's really good.

JP: 37:14

Okay. Let's go check it out. Right.

Becky: 37:17

Let's have a look at favourite game that you know, is going to cause an argument.

Elwen: 37:26

Well, that's the Tyrants of the Underdark.

Mín: 37:30

You expected there? Yeah, that's actually you know, okay. Ish.

Elwen: 37:36

Maybe some hidden roles. Yeah,

Becky: 37:38

hidden roles. One for us. Usually cause arguments don't like

JP: 37:42

Battlestar Galactica. In a good way. Yeah. In a good way. Yeah. Because we have a friend Davey. And if he's ever a Cylon, you kind of know, because he will just start accusing everyone else would be in the Cylon. Within five minutes. Yeah, within five minutes. And it's such a game where you are just spending two hours arguing your case to everybody. I mean, I once got thrown in the brig for rolling the dice badly. And they said, Well, you You mess that up. I said, So dice. Yeah, I think just cause arguments, but I do love it. But those games

Elwen: 38:23

create such beautiful memories. And like, that's Yeah, that's really likeable. These kind of games. You just then meet up with your friends. And you talk about your experience you had years ago,

JP: 38:34

stories, they create stories and those kinds of dramatic hidden role games. Yeah, they're just beautiful, aren't they?

Elwen: 38:43

It's like, this is almost like the answer to the second question. For me A Study in Emerald the first edition was such as big surprise. Like, I didn't know what to expect from the game. It's quite older now. Designed by Martin Wallace, I think is such a crazy twist anything like the elements of the game that can never come

Mín: 39:04

into play? It's like two pages into you know, somebody come into play, but maybe never will. But maybe.

Elwen: 39:15

fun thing to play against.

Becky: 39:20

Okay, no, but I'll go on. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. favourite game that puts you in a state of Zen. So something you'll just play to kind of chill.

JP: 39:30

Oh, harmonise?

Elwen: 39:33

For me lately. It's the game It's a wonderful world.

Becky: 39:37

Oh, yeah, that's one of our friend Adrian's one of his favourites favourite games ever because

JP: 39:42

it's the seventh wonder Slayer.

Elwen: 39:45

It's I played often solo and it's not a theme it's more like the process of just I don't know it's just yeah, emotions with all this lovely cubes.

Becky: 39:58

The cubes are lovely in that.

JP: 40:01

I mean can Yeah, makes you calm and yeah, it's great and you can properly escape. Most board games for me you can properly escape from anything because usually the games I played I don't have the mental capacity to think about anything else, because I'm literally right in the game. Am I processing wherever I need to? But there are some games that feel zen like when you play them are very chill. Everyone's like weirdly quiet. About you, Mín. Have you got a an example?

Mín: 40:32

It's hard to say actually, I usually care too much. I guess it would have to be like a soccer game. And I have like games that I play where I think the chance is actually you know, like, it's too much about chance like it can anything can happen, like Lost Cities is good example, when I'm tired. You should play the game because I feel like I can try but you know, maybe I don't have a chance to win. So whatever

Becky: 41:01

is taken out of just out of your hands, maybe if the dice have a lot of say yeah, like

Mín: 41:07

and it's you know about the rolling dice. This is different.

Becky: 41:12

Nice. Got any more than you want to.

JP: 41:15

So we'll do one more. Enjoying these pull one out of the I'm gonna pull one out. Yeah, what is your favourite game to play at two players, but can also play five niche. So it's usually like, obviously, you have two player games, one v one games, but it's quite nice to find those rare gems. That's a five player game that can play really well to

Mín: 41:42

I think Lordsof Waterdeep, right? You can Yeah, fives. Yeah, yeah, I really liked this one. But it's not a very niche game. Like everybody knows the right answer.

Becky: 41:52

Yeah, no. Yeah. I think that I think that may have been my answer. Well, I love that game. I just love that game. But I've had to take some of the mandatory quests out because I don't like putting them on people. And I don't like it when they're put on me. We can't Yeah, we kept some but we did take out some.

JP: 42:13

Yes, you're playing like laws of war the the nicer version? Well,

Becky: 42:17

it's ever nice. I don't think it's ever Nice.

JP: 42:20

Yeah, mandatory requests, yuck.

Elwen: 42:23

I was thinking about Heat. Because it's a replay with all the people. Racing, it's, it's more competitive. But when you're playing with two, you're actually playing with this AI cars, you know, legends. And it's fun. Like, then you're trying to beat those is like kind of, I love to play with you. Like if you're just played with my son. So you just always try to race and so we're trying to be the first one. So, so yeah, I liked it too. And also with five people.

JP: 42:55

That's a great, great. Yeah, that's a great answer that one. Yeah, I've played heat for a long time. I played

Becky: 43:01

it for the first time with Paul Grogan at the 24 hour Marathon, I think. Yeah, that was my first experience of it. I really liked it. I really

JP: 43:09

liked Yeah, you either. I've heard some really good things about the AI, the legends, kind of solo opponents, because you can add in as many to fill in the human players, right. So you can literally just fill the race up with with the AI and yeah, that's what I've heard is, is that flip a card, do a thing. Job done, get on with your turn. Yeah, it's an adjustment for all

Elwen: 43:32

of them. So it's kind of like it's really wow, to resolve the action. So

JP: 43:37

you don't do like for every racer, you're doing a an action. It's literally one card moves all of the races. That's great. Because the racing game needs a bit of bit of tussling does, it needs a bit of competitiveness with other races. And I think if you just had two cars going around the track is one is gonna pull out in front, it's going to be a bit boring. Yeah. That's interesting. That's great answers. Thank

Becky: 44:00

you so much for that. So last question, you might not be able to answer this one. What is in the pipeline in the future? Have you got any more games kind of bubbling on the backburner? or

JP: 44:09

On walks that you've been talking about? Yeah, you probably can't share?

Elwen: 44:15

Well, we're always designing but we can't talk about any design.

Becky: 44:22

I mean, if it's anything like as involved and and varied and just super addictive, like Arnak, then well, I can't wait to play it. Whatever that could be

JP: 44:35

I think there's gonna be a lot of people, they're definitely interested in what you guys put out next. And yeah, I mean, those included? Definitely. So taking a different approach to that similar question. So instead of saying what's in the pipeline, what are you actually looking forward to? And that doesn't have to be anything that you're working on. That can be anything you like conventions could be games that are coming out that you think are really want to play, but whatever we're looking forward to.

Elwen: 45:04

Looking forward to play all the games we have and we haven't played yet.

Becky: 45:09

Get them off the shelf of shame.

Elwen: 45:13

Shelf opportunity. Absolutely. I

Becky: 45:15

like that. Yeah.

Mín: 45:16

So the pile right now.

JP: 45:18

Yeah, it's awesome. Give me a few examples. Here.

Elwen: 45:22

Roll Camera is one corporate game. We have Wolves

Mín: 45:28

Atlantis Rising. Oh, yeah.

Elwen: 45:31

Happy Christmas. I haven't.

Becky: 45:35

You can't see it. But both Mín and Elwen are both really excited, their faces just lit up. These new exciting games

JP: 45:43

is great though. Because like this one, I'm looking forward to the Christmas break. Obviously, it's literally that what the last day of November as we record this. And for me Christmas time, when I finish work, this is when I just want to sit and play games, sort of play games games. I've got adult duties to do. I'm a father. And my son likes to play games as

Becky: 46:05

Beat you at games as well. He's better. He's nine.

JP: 46:10

And he's getting. Yeah, he's getting that. Yeah, we'll get them on the heavy one. So yeah, mindclash, mindclash, but avoid for some, maybe not. Yeah. Yeah.

Becky: 46:21

For me, this is my first Christmas that I know I'm not working. Yeah, so I'm a nurse. So I worked every Christmas forever. I'm not working for Christmas. I'm, I've got these kind of almost two weeks of opportunity just sitting there. And I well, I don't know what to do with it. I'm really excited. Yeah. So you've got

JP: 46:43

a shelf of opportunities as well. Opportunity?

Becky: 46:45

Yeah. Yes. Which I need to crack into? Definitely. Well, I think we've taken up lots of your time. And I just want to say such a huge thank you to, to you guys for taking the time out of your life to talk to us a little

Elwen: 46:58

Been a lovely experience, talking to you about things we love.

Becky: 47:04

And that's what brings everyone together in this hobby, isn't it? We we just have this one passion for this. Yeah, you know, big nebulous subject. But it ignites that excitement in all of us, which I think is something that is really apparent at all of the conventions, and all of the kinds of charity organisations and stuff that involve board games, you've just got this lovely, amazing sort of sense of connectedness, which I really like. And that's what I think

board gaming is to me: 47:29

this connectedness with your friends with, you know, the random people, you're playing on BGA or whatever. And I just yeah, I really love that. If you'd have told us a year ago, we were going to be interviewing Mín and Elwen Oh, my goodness, I'd be like, get out of town

Elwen: 47:43

If you told us people would be interviewing we wouldn't believe you

Becky: 47:51

Thank you so much, guys. Thanks for being part of this with us. It's it's been amazing. So much. What a lovely, lovely pair of human beings. It was just so great to speak to them about everything. They're awesome. They were just so lovely. Yeah, I can't believe that, that they took the time out of their lives to speak to us. Oh, my God.

JP: 48:22

We're so privileged, do we? Yeah,

Becky: 48:24

I really do. And that sounds really silly. But it's, it's so nice to sort of see behind that curtain of, you know, the minds that make these things that we spend so much of our time doing,

JP: 48:34

I think, I think the same we meet quite a few guests than that. And I think the same every time is that, you know, just human beings like us. And but they just, it's just great, as you say, to get that that sense of how they come up with this product, or this idea or design. And it's just so interesting, because like we just play the game. So you don't

Becky: 48:57

really, if you're just picking the product up, you don't necessarily think about the mind behind it. But then when you kind of see those people and speak to those people either, you know, watching a YouTube video or whatever, you just get this completely different layer of they're sort of the story behind it. And it just makes it even more interesting to me. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, thanks to you guys for listening. Thanks to men and women for coming on. Thanks to JP for, you know, putting us up in your place when you've got a busy life at the minute.

JP: 49:28

I love I love talking about games. It's not a chore. This is good. This is good for

Becky: 49:31

me. Good. Good. So yeah, I just want to thank everyone for listening to the episode. If you want to get in contact with the show all our contact details are in the show notes. Players@whoseturn.co.uk if you want to send us an email and you know, give us some feedback, or ask us a question or engagement. Yeah, tell us anything you like tell us anything you like so yeah, and that's the end of this expansion episode.

JP: 49:55

Whose turn is it? Mín and Elwen's